Formula Farce.....

[mike farrants]

Any F1 fans on here? 

what did you think? 

I'm a massive Lewis fan so naturally the last lap was a huge disappointment, i'm happy for Max, he's a great driver, but it should have been a fair fight. 

Feels like it was gifted to Max by the officials - and mad decision to allow only a few cars to unlap themselves, having said none would be bale to seconds before....

should have been a red flag, all back to the pits and then a standing start for the last 5 laps - that would have been awesome and a fair fight.

thoughts?

[Saintly Fish]

Lewis was robbed. Mercedes had strategised for the race to finish behind the pace car, which it would have done if the rules about lapped cars unlapping themselves before the pace car came in was followed correctly. I think this win will be over ruled in the courts. 

[Andy135]

Didn't watch it but read about how it unfolded. Can't have one rule for Max and another for Lewis - got to be consistent. Will be interesting to see how this play out with the appeal and what comes after.

[Geoff]

Red Bull reacted immediately to the safety car by bringing Max in for soft rubber in the hope that the race would be re started. Mercedes did not bring Lewis in because they thought Max would stay out if they did and therefore would gain track position. That much is fact and showed both teams strategies. I agree that Lewis would have won the race quite easily had the safety car incident not occurred, but that is how it happens some times. I do not think it will be possible to change the result as if any mistakes were made it was by the race officials, the teams and drivers did not breach any rules. Personally I am pleased to see another driver/car take the championship. Mercedes have had the best car by a country mile for a long time now, and I am pleased to see others getting a bit closer. The Mercedes/Lewis  pairing will win plenty more races in the next few years and Lewis will probably end up with 10 world titles. This season has been more interesting than other recent seasons BECAUSE of Max and the performance that he has managed to drag out of the Red Bull. Yes, he had a bit (lot) of luck in winning the title and the way it happened, but he too has had some bad luck and debatable  penalties imposed this year. Mercedes won the constructors championship and the input from Max and Red Bull certainly benefited the series as a whole this year. I believe that at the end of the day Mercedes may decide not to appeal the results in the interests of the sport and will go all out to ensure that next year they are back on top and that Red bull will do everything possible to keep up with them. Just in case there is any doubt, I would like to declare my personal allegiance is to Red Bull, but that is not the reason that I have made the above comments, I would just like to show an alternative Perspective. Well done to both teams and both drivers for their performances. Geoff.

[Saintly Fish]

1 hour ago, Geoff said:

Mercedes did not bring Lewis in because they thought Max would stay out if they did and therefore would gain track position. That much is fact and showed both teams strategies. I agree that Lewis would have won the race quite easily had the safety car incident not occurred, but that is how it happens some times.

Actually Geoff this is all incorrect. Mercedes did not bring Lewis in because under normal rules ALL the lapped cars are allowed to re pass the leaders under the safety car. In this race only the first 5 lapped cars were allowed to pass. This was because race director wanted a car race for the final lap. But, this unfortunately was in breach of the regulations. If ALL the lapped cars un lapped themselves under safety car conditions Lewis would have won because the race would not have had enough laps left. 
Mercedes based their team decision on the rule book being followed to the letter. That is what they are upset about, the fact that the race director did not allow normal race conditions to continue, which then unfairly handed the advantage to Verstapen. 

[Geoff]

Not quite so Neil. At the time that the safety was deployed, Mercedes could have brought Lewis in, but elected to keep track position because had the track not been cleared before the end of the race Max (who would not have pitted) would have won the race. No one knew how long the SC would stay out, so IMHO Mercedes did not even think about the number of cars that would need to be passed. I am sure that Mercedes expected the race to finish under the SC in which case Lewis would have won. I do think that the media (and possibly the F1 owners) wanted the drama of a last lap race to the finish. Mercedes actually told Lewis that if he came in Max would stay out, also in the hope of a SC finish. I was particularly impressed by Lewis's behaviour after the race when he congratulated Max as that must have been very difficult for him, but a truly sporting gesture. Geoff.

[suzook12]

I must admit, Lewis was very gracious in defeat. I will give him credit there, but I still no longer follow him because of all that kneeling bollox.....

[Saintly Fish]

On 12/13/2021 at 8:46 PM, Geoff said:

Not quite so Neil. At the time that the safety was deployed, Mercedes could have brought Lewis in, but elected to keep track position because had the track not been cleared before the end of the race Max (who would not have pitted) would have won the race. No one knew how long the SC would stay out, so IMHO Mercedes did not even think about the number of cars that would need to be passed. I am sure that Mercedes expected the race to finish under the SC in which case Lewis would have won. I do think that the media (and possibly the F1 owners) wanted the drama of a last lap race to the finish. Mercedes actually told Lewis that if he came in Max would stay out, also in the hope of a SC finish. I was particularly impressed by Lewis's behaviour after the race when he congratulated Max as that must have been very difficult for him, but a truly sporting gesture. Geoff.

Well they went on record saying that the length of time it would take to clear up the mess and then clear the lapped cars, was what they based their plan of action on. 
Shame the race director was bias. 
I hear today though that they have dropped their appeal after the FIA agreed to form a group to properly govern  and police the rules of the sport. 
 

[Geoff]

18 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Well they went on record saying that the length of time it would take to clear up the mess and then clear the lapped cars, was what they based their plan of action on. 
Shame the race director was bias. 
I hear today though that they have dropped their appeal after the FIA agreed to form a group to properly govern  and police the rules of the sport. 
 

Neil, I would agree that MB thought the race would probably finish under the safety car when they made their decision not to bring Lewis in, but had not thought about the time taken for lapped cars to pass. When the accident occurred there were 6 remaining laps  and MB would have had to made their decision within a very short time period about what was best for them. Had Lewis remained in front of Max there would have been no mention of the number of lapped cars. There is also the matter that the SC should have come in one lap later to comply with the rules. I do not think that there was any bias from the race director, but that he wanted to give the spectators what they wanted - the spectacle of a race to the finish!!! . The first mention of the number of lapped cars was AFTER the event. Anyway, I am pleased to see that MB have agreed to drop the matter now, and I suspect that would have been on the advice of Lewis who would have been totally aware that the result could NEVER have been reversed. I have been an F1 follower since the late fifties and think that the sport has been ruined by over regulation of what is permitted. Innovation has now been basically banned, Gone are the days when teams like Lotus, Brabham, Matra etc. could introduce clever ideas like "Ground effects", "Fan cars", "6 Wheelers" etc. Geoff.

[Andy135]

32 minutes ago, Geoff said:

Gone are the days when teams like Lotus, Brabham, Matra etc. could introduce clever ideas like "Ground effects", "Fan cars", "6 Wheelers" etc. Geoff.

Now those were truly amazing machines. A few (quite a few) years ago I was given a free ticket to Silverstone Classic where I first came across these clever interpretations of the rules of the time. The six wheeler and the fan car are quite spectacular from an engineering and driving perspective. I also remember the crab car with two small radiators either side and in front of the nose cone. Not quite sure what that was all about but interesting to see nonetheless.

My main memory though was of seeing (and hearing & feeling) a DVF spark up in close proximity. Sheer petrol-hedonism! 🥰

[JonC]

4 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

Now those were truly amazing machines. A few (quite a few) years ago I was given a free ticket to Silverstone Classic where I first came across these clever interpretations of the rules of the time. The six wheeler and the fan car are quite spectacular from an engineering and driving perspective. I also remember the crab car with two small radiators either side and in front of the nose cone. Not quite sure what that was all about but interesting to see nonetheless.

My main memory though was of seeing (and hearing & feeling) a DVF spark up in close proximity. Sheer petrol-hedonism! 🥰

If my memory serves me right the 6 wheeler was abandoned in ‘78 - you do have a good memory. 

[Andy135]

2 minutes ago, JonC said:

If my memory serves me right the 6 wheeler was abandoned in ‘78 - you do have a good memory. 

Jon I think you missed the fact that I saw them at the Silverstone Classic. Clearly these were around before I was born... but you already knew that. 😉

https://www.silverstone.co.uk/events/the-classic

 

[suzook12]

I remember the Elf Tyrrel (I think) 6 wheeler, and was available in scalextric as well

[Saintly Fish]

51 minutes ago, Geoff said:

The first mention of the number of lapped cars was AFTER the event.

That's not correct Geoff. Did you actually watch the race.? 
There was a discussion over the radio (which was aired)where the race director stated that NO lapped cars would be allowed to un lap themselves before the pace car came in. Then, after pressure from Red Bull, the race director changed his tune and said that the 5 cars between Lewis and Max would be allowed to pass. This is the point that MB were furious about because for the sake of an unfair last lap the director hung Lewis out to dry. 
After a crash like the one that happened, Mercedes were experienced enough to know that there was not a recovery vehicle close enough to remove the scrapped car quick enough and for the lapped cars to un lap before the race finished under SC conditions. 

[Andy135]

1 minute ago, suzook12 said:

I remember the Elf Tyrrel (I think) 6 wheeler, and was available in scalextric as well

Yep, Tyrrell P34. Awesome stuff.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_P34

[Geoff]

In the late sixties we attended the German GP at the old Nurberg ring a couple of times. We used to be able to set up camp (we had a small ridge tent and a camping gaz stove)which was about all that we could fit into our Triumph GT6) at the ring. We were able to pitch up on grass land adjacent to the track. We thought we were well set with our camping kit, but when some Americans pitched up just along from us in a huge American station wagen, set up what seemed to be a small marquee,and lit a huge fire with a rotary spit with a whole suckling pig and then a chilled stillage with cold beer on tap we began to understand what camping was really all about!!! We used to  camp at the "Carousel" and on one occasion Dan Gurney broke down there and as we were standing by the 1m high (no I did not measure it Jon) chain link fence Joyce managed to get a photo of him, immediately in front of us. That sort of thing could never happen today. Geoff.

[Andy135]

6 minutes ago, Geoff said:

our Triumph GT6

Lovely car! Very nice lines and a 6 cylinder lump to make it go. Got any pics?

[Geoff]

14 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

That's not correct Geoff. Did you actually watch the race.? 
There was a discussion over the radio (which was aired)where the race director stated that NO lapped cars would be allowed to un lap themselves before the pace car came in. Then, after pressure from Red Bull, the race director changed his tune and said that the 5 cars between Lewis and Max would be allowed to pass. This is the point that MB were furious about because for the sake of an unfair last lap the director hung Lewis out to dry. 
After a crash like the one that happened, Mercedes were experienced enough to know that there was not a recovery vehicle close enough to remove the scrapped car quick enough and for the lapped cars to un lap before the race finished under SC conditions. 

I did watch the race Neil, and during the SC period the commentators said that the rules stated that lapped cars MAY be allowed to pass, but that it was not mandatory. I did also notice that Max did just about pull level or probably move slightly ahead of Lewis under the SC which I knew was not allowed and I even remarked to Joyce at the time that Max could be penalised for it. That was one of the points that MB objected to. The first complaint that I heard about only 5 cars being allowed to pass was after the race. What happened has happened and I am sure that MB fans think it was wrong, and RB fans think it was great. Personally I think on balance of the season, Max deserved the drivers championship and MB deserved the constructors. Geoff.

[Geoff]

6 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

Lovely car! Very nice lines and a 6 cylinder lump to make it go. Got any pics?

It was Andy. Yes we do have some pics somewhere, I will ask Joyce to dig a couple out. We bought it new, a white car with an all black interior - the first car that I ever saw with a black headlining. We bought a set of black luggage for the back shelf and thought we were the business! After the Gp the circuit remained open and spectators were allowed to drive around the full circuit (for a fee of course) and I suspect that I would have qualified for the slowest lap ever recorded had it been timed. Geoff.

[Saintly Fish]

8 hours ago, Geoff said:

I did watch the race Neil, and during the SC period the commentators said that the rules stated that lapped cars MAY be allowed to pass, but that it was not mandatory. I did also notice that Max did just about pull level or probably move slightly ahead of Lewis under the SC which I knew was not allowed and I even remarked to Joyce at the time that Max could be penalised for it. That was one of the points that MB objected to. The first complaint that I heard about only 5 cars being allowed to pass was after the race. What happened has happened and I am sure that MB fans think it was wrong, and RB fans think it was great. Personally I think on balance of the season, Max deserved the drivers championship and MB deserved the constructors. Geoff.

You must have been slurping your Horlicks at the critical moment of radio broad cast! 🤣

[Geoff]

41 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

You must have been slurping your Horlicks at the critical moment of radio broad cast! 🤣

Radio broadcast? - I thought that we were referring to TV. Actually Neil I do enjoy my Horlicks nightcap, but that is usually around midnight.  Geoff.

[Saintly Fish]

3 minutes ago, Geoff said:

Radio broadcast? - I thought that we were referring to TV. Actually Neil I do enjoy my Horlicks nightcap, but that is usually around midnight.  Geoff.

Radio as in car/race director to pit wall, not you and Joyce huddled around the wireless! 

[Geoff]

Wireless communication between 2 participants does not come under the term Radio broadcast. Geoff.☺️

[Saintly Fish]

3 hours ago, Geoff said:

Wireless communication between 2 participants does not come under the term Radio broadcast. Geoff.☺️

That's why they call it "radio" communication! 

[mike farrants]

13 hours ago, Geoff said:

In the late sixties we attended the German GP at the old Nurberg ring a couple of times. We used to be able to set up camp (we had a small ridge tent and a camping gaz stove)which was about all that we could fit into our Triumph GT6) at the ring. We were able to pitch up on grass land adjacent to the track. We thought we were well set with our camping kit, but when some Americans pitched up just along from us in a huge American station wagen, set up what seemed to be a small marquee,and lit a huge fire with a rotary spit with a whole suckling pig and then a chilled stillage with cold beer on tap we began to understand what camping was really all about!!! We used to  camp at the "Carousel" and on one occasion Dan Gurney broke down there and as we were standing by the 1m high (no I did not measure it Jon) chain link fence Joyce managed to get a photo of him, immediately in front of us. That sort of thing could never happen today. Geoff.

still happens at Le mans to a certain extent - i've been going for 10 years, sometime 3 of us, sometimes 13 of us - best year we had a pub outdoor kit with us - 2 barrels of carling, 2x barrels of Guinness, 1 barrel of cider, chiller, bar, disco/PA set up, satelite, TV, lasers, smoke machine, disco ball - we even brought the pub garden - hanging baskets, water feature, gravel path, paving - no joke - the full works. Cars with us included an aston martin V8, E type Jag and a ford GT40

camped about 50m from the track at maison blanc - you can get right up to to the cars and drivers in the paddock, nothing like formula 1.

Le mans is true grit, determination, twists and turns - with 4 classes on track at the same time - and loads f support races.

although the race is only 24hrs its an amazing week of racing! 

looking forward to 2022