thejollysinker Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 On my last venture out, I dropped the leg on my F60A and the PTT started slower than usual, then got slower and slower until it hit the stop at the bottom at a snail's pace. Didn't sound very good either. Thinking the battery might be on it's way out, I looked at the charge light which was glowing solid green, then went for a start up. Now my engine isn't a great starter when it's cooler but the battery had plenty of life in it to fire it up so the problem couldn't be electrical, right? I went out anyway, no problem trimming it up slightly for the journey and at the end of the day it worked just fine. Any ideas why it could have done that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Is there a fluid reservoir that could need topping up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 26 minutes ago, JonC said: Is there a fluid reservoir that could need topping up? Like your port bottle ? thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said: Like your port bottle ? I don’t get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, JonC said: I don’t get it? Ok, like your bottle of port. Better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 4 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said: Ok, like your bottle of port. Better? I haven’t got any port. I dranked it. stop ruining this post. thejollysinker and Saintly Fish 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 2 hours ago, thejollysinker said: so the problem couldn't be electrical, right? Certainly could...... Did the pump motor sound slower than normal or faster than normal? If it sounded slower there's a good possibility that you have a corroded supply wire to the pump motor or similar. Try measuring the voltage at the pump motor and at the battery. Switches, relays and even fuses with dirty contacts can cause these symptoms. If it ran faster then theres a fair chance the fluid is running low and the pump is cavitating thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Agree with @suzook12. Check supply and earth wires for corroded contacts or partial breaks. Worth being super-scrupulous and inspecting all the joints properly (vs a cursory glance) as sometimes corrosion can be hidden under heatshrink or sleeving. Fuse contacts are another good shout, especially if the fuse box they're in isn't fully sealed from atmosphere. thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejollysinker Posted September 28, 2022 Author Share Posted September 28, 2022 1 hour ago, JonC said: Is there a fluid reservoir that could need topping up? yes there is....can check that 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejollysinker Posted September 28, 2022 Author Share Posted September 28, 2022 33 minutes ago, suzook12 said: Certainly could...... Did the pump motor sound slower than normal or faster than normal? If it sounded slower there's a good possibility that you have a corroded supply wire to the pump motor or similar. Try measuring the voltage at the pump motor and at the battery. Switches, relays and even fuses with dirty contacts can cause these symptoms. If it ran faster then theres a fair chance the fluid is running low and the pump is cavitating it sounded slower and as it got slower it was like a chattering sound if that makes sense? I'll get a meter on it as soon as I'm able to check that too thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 3 hours ago, thejollysinker said: it sounded slower and as it got slower it was like a chattering sound if that makes sense? I'll get a meter on it as soon as I'm able to check that too thanks It is probably the pump motor, Yams and Merc are very weak in that department. You might be able to strip the motor and free up the bearings. My Merc 150 is 3 years old a goes in for it annual service tomorrow, I have asked them to change the PTT motor under warranty as the housing has gone very rusty. It is trailered and washed off after every outing, so it should look like new. thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 20 hours ago, thejollysinker said: it sounded slower and as it got slower it was like a chattering sound if that makes sense? I'll get a meter on it as soon as I'm able to check that too thanks Chattering noise does sound like the voltage is collapsing and the solenoids aren't holding. Multimeter will tell JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejollysinker Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 On 9/29/2022 at 4:45 PM, suzook12 said: Chattering noise does sound like the voltage is collapsing and the solenoids aren't holding. Multimeter will tell update: I've been down at low water today with the meter to have a look and this happened.. I hooked the meter up to the contacts on the solenoid and pressed the switch down. I got a reading of 6 volts. Pressed the switch up and got 7 volts. I continued to do this up and down switching ( the movement and associated sound ceased completely by now) with the voltage increasing gradually to a maximum of 13.1V +/- with each throw of the switch. Does this mean that the solenoid is delivering the right amount of juice to the motor or could the solenoid have broken down and not be delivering the correct current? I'm not very good at this if you can't tell... 😐 I thought I'd try and look at anything else so set about unplugging everything, cleaning with electrical contact cleaner and re-fitting but no joy. I also did this: put the contacts here and here (red circles) and threw the switch both ways which gave a reading of between 6 and 7 volts... Don't even know if there should be a reading there but that's what happened. Anyway, I've already ordered a new solenoid pack (in case it is that) from a far eastern source....so will have to wait for that. Praying it's not the motor as I can't seem to find one for a reasonable price 😞 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 @suzook12 for this one, @thejollysinker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 Yup, you should be getting 12v, not 6 or 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 4 hours ago, thejollysinker said: Praying it's not the motor as I can't seem to find one for a reasonable price 😞 For a Yam, that motor looks in very good condition. When the voltage increased to 12 and above, did the motor begin to spin the pump Ok? ........... I am guessing yes ? What you are describing could well be the relay pack, a duff switch, or a bad earth, however, if the engine stars ok, then that is pretty much ruled out. Was the result the same from both the control unit switch and the engine switch ? Do you have a wiring diagram that you could scan and post up for us to look at ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) Ok, I think I have found the right diagram, 3 is the TT motor, 4 is the relay pack, 16 is the up/down switch. So ............... the relays are fed from the starter solenoid , so check the red wire to make sure that is ok, and check you have 12v at the relay pack. If the relays are operating OK, then you can rule out the up/down switch wiring, all the switch does is to operate the relays, and the relay contacts control the voltage to the motor. How it works ...................... looking at the diagram when the up button is pressed the upper relay operates and sends 12V to the motor on the blue wire and the green wire stays at ground. When the down button is pressed, the lower relay operates via the light blue wire and sends 12V to the motor on the green wire and the blue wire stays at ground. So, the relays have a purpose in life of reversing the polarity to the motor for either up or down. UP/DOWN relays do fail, especially on the older Johnsons, but it is unusual for them both to fail, having said that, Yam package both relays into one module. Firstly, I would check the wiring harness plug to the relay module, looking for green and water damaged connections. Also check the ground connection (continuity) to the relay pack (that is the black wires), using multimeter on low ohms from ground to the black at the relay. Then, press up and down and measure the voltage on the blue and green wires at the relay pack, if it is a low voltage, then disconnect the TT motor and measure again. If the voltage is still low then the relay pack is faulty, if the voltage is 12v then there is a possibility that the TT motor is faulty and drawing too much current, but that is unlikely, also the wiring would be ferkin hot and probably the main 20A engine fuse would blow (6) By all accounts, changing the motor is more difficult than it seems, as the 'o' ring is difficult to seal. There is a guy on RIBNET who runs an outboard outfit in jockistan, and he specializes in yams, so probably has all the parts. If all else fails, give me a call and I will give you a hand at a suitable low tide. Edited October 15, 2022 by GPSguru Andy135, Saintly Fish and thejollysinker 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejollysinker Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 Thanks for the detailed reply Ian. I'll try and get down again today (weather permitting) and go over what you've described. There is no movement on the the motor at all now, it was extremely slow anyway but doesn't spin at all now. I'll get back to you after another fiddle, cheers, Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaByte Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 If you're reading 6v between the case of the motor and earth, the motor isn't earthed properly and you're loosing volts across the bad earth. thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejollysinker Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 17 hours ago, GPSguru said: Ok, I think I have found the right diagram, 3 is the TT motor, 4 is the relay pack, 16 is the up/down switch. So ............... the relays are fed from the starter solenoid , so check the red wire to make sure that is ok, and check you have 12v at the relay pack. If the relays are operating OK, then you can rule out the up/down switch wiring, all the switch does is to operate the relays, and the relay contacts control the voltage to the motor. How it works ...................... looking at the diagram when the up button is pressed the upper relay operates and sends 12V to the motor on the blue wire and the green wire stays at ground. When the down button is pressed, the lower relay operates via the light blue wire and sends 12V to the motor on the green wire and the blue wire stays at ground. So, the relays have a purpose in life of reversing the polarity to the motor for either up or down. UP/DOWN relays do fail, especially on the older Johnsons, but it is unusual for them both to fail, having said that, Yam package both relays into one module. Firstly, I would check the wiring harness plug to the relay module, looking for green and water damaged connections. Also check the ground connection (continuity) to the relay pack (that is the black wires), using multimeter on low ohms from ground to the black at the relay. Then, press up and down and measure the voltage on the blue and green wires at the relay pack, if it is a low voltage, then disconnect the TT motor and measure again. If the voltage is still low then the relay pack is faulty, if the voltage is 12v then there is a possibility that the TT motor is faulty and drawing too much current, but that is unlikely, also the wiring would be ferkin hot and probably the main 20A engine fuse would blow (6) By all accounts, changing the motor is more difficult than it seems, as the 'o' ring is difficult to seal. There is a guy on RIBNET who runs an outboard outfit in jockistan, and he specializes in yams, so probably has all the parts. If all else fails, give me a call and I will give you a hand at a suitable low tide. well I got down and started to have a look today at low water and shortly after @GPSguru turned up (very nice to meet you Ian) and we went through a few scenarios and tried a couple of things. In conclusion there is definitely a problem with the motor as the readings from the relay pack were all spot on and I double checked all the connections which were in good condition. I'll have to walk her up the beach next weekend and take the motor off to fully ascertain the extent of the problem..... oh joy! Saintly Fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 18 minutes ago, thejollysinker said: well I got down and started to have a look today at low water and shortly after @GPSguru turned up (very nice to meet you Ian) and we went through a few scenarios and tried a couple of things. In conclusion there is definitely a problem with the motor as the readings from the relay pack were all spot on and I double checked all the connections which were in good condition. I'll have to walk her up the beach next weekend and take the motor off to fully ascertain the extent of the problem..... oh joy! What did you think of the tach Gary?? It's a beauty ain't it !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said: What did you think of the tach Gary?? It's a beauty ain't it !!! Are you missing an 'e' by any chance? #cantevengethisabbreviationsright thejollysinker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 14 minutes ago, Andy135 said: Are you missing an 'e' by any chance? #cantevengethisabbreviationsright Piss off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Just now, Saintly Fish said: Piss off It's the phone! Andy135 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Just now, Saintly Fish said: Piss off 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🖕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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