Reel loading

[JonC]

9 hours ago, JDP said:

No, only the PR knot. I see to many fg's pull apart on decent fish over here from experienced anglers who think they have perfected them. My PR tool is set with a tension screw to allow precise tension and has yet to fail on joins in the past 10+ years. So many people targeting bigger species here have turned to pr knot tools. 
The first knot against the spool can be the lumpy one, hence a bit of tape over it.

I had not seen this not, so I watched a couple of YouTubes .What does the bobbin do other than hold the line with some resistance? I looked on the interweb and the shimano ones are about £65, seems a lot for a weight . 

[Malc]

Just looking at the PR on the toob and it seems to be mostly for heavier gear, is that right?

Finished knot looks much like the other one but just uses a fly tying bobbin? Basically a whipping. 

[JonC]

3 minutes ago, Malc said:

Just looking at the PR on the toob and it seems to be mostly for heavier gear, is that right?

Finished knot looks much like the other one but just uses a fly tying bobbin? Basically a whipping. 

It looks fairly inert unless I’m missing something ( probable) 

[JonC]

The video I watched said that the leader not never failed, often the line at the reel. For big fish in open water this sounds good but for fishing a snaggy wreck that you are going to lose tackle on I think I would rather lose the leader down and not 50m of line each drop. 

[Saintly Fish]

11 minutes ago, JonC said:

The video I watched said that the leader not never failed, often the line at the reel. For big fish in open water this sounds good but for fishing a snaggy wreck that you are going to lose tackle on I think I would rather lose the leader down and not 50m of line each drop. 

On a wreck, isn't it normally the weight that snags? Not the line, that's why weak links are used. 

[JonC]

5 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

On a wreck, isn't it normally the weight that snags? Not the line, that's why weak links are used. 

Sometimes yes but even with a rotten bottom you lose the lot, my point was that I would rather lose just the end tackle than all the way from the reel 

[Malc]

25 minutes ago, JonC said:

The video I watched said that the leader not never failed, often the line at the reel. For big fish in open water this sounds good but for fishing a snaggy wreck that you are going to lose tackle on I think I would rather lose the leader down and not 50m of line each drop. 

Admittedly I was using the FG but I usually pull out using a piece of wood wrapped with duct tape just above the reel and if using a rotten bottom it snaps off and I just lose the weight, at the weekend I lost the leader and a full set of gear when pulling out. 

You just need to get 3-4 wraps round the wood and let the line tighten between the reel and the wood as gently as possible and point the rod down to the snag.

[Andy135]

Just now, Malc said:

Admittedly I was using the FG but I usually pull out using a piece of wood wrapped with duct tape just above the reel and if using a rotten bottom it snaps off and I just lose the weight, at the weekend I lost the leader and a full set of gear when pulling out. 

You just need to get 3-4 wraps round the wood and let the line tighten between the reel and the wood as gently as possible and point the rod down to the snag.

Totally agree here. I too use a length of wood (cut down pickaxe handle that doubles as a priest) and let the drift do the work. Should never pull for a snag using the rod alone - ask me how I know... 

[JonC]

8 minutes ago, Malc said:

Admittedly I was using the FG but I usually pull out using a piece of wood wrapped with duct tape just above the reel and if using a rotten bottom it snaps off and I just lose the weight, at the weekend I lost the leader and a full set of gear when pulling out. 

You just need to get 3-4 wraps round the wood and let the line tighten between the reel and the wood as gently as possible and point the rod down to the snag.

Yeah I’ve pulled plenty of snags out before,  no problem with that . I prefer to loosen the drag and wrap the line around a cleat keeping the rod well out of the equation. 

[GPSguru]

4 hours ago, JonC said:

I had not seen this not, so I watched a couple of YouTubes .What does the bobbin do other than hold the line with some resistance? I looked on the interweb and the shimano ones are about £65, seems a lot for a weight . 

You can get a PR bobbin from Terry at Jigabite for less than £30.

Mine is a trabucco from Italy and cost me £44.

I am pretty sure the Shimano is not available in the UK.

 

[GPSguru]

3 hours ago, Malc said:

Just looking at the PR on the toob and it seems to be mostly for heavier gear, is that right?

Finished knot looks much like the other one but just uses a fly tying bobbin? Basically a whipping. 

No, you can use the PR knot on light lines, just reduce the bobbin clutch tension.

The PR knot is essentially a very tight FG with many more turns. 

the bobbin keeps the line tight to the knot as it releases line through the clutch.

A properly tied PR is very streamlined and deffo 100% of the line strength.

I use it mainly on my SPG gear. Tying 20lb braid to a 20lb FC leader, but I also use it on the shark rods for tying 80lb braid to the 80lb co polymer top shot.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by GPSguru

[Odyssey]

I’ve moved over to splicing for my braid to mono conversion. I don’t have a bobbin but I’ve good set of splicing needles so do it that way…. Not too fiddly once you get used to it 🙂 

[GPSguru]

1 minute ago, Odyssey said:

I’ve moved over to splicing for my braid to mono conversion. I don’t have a bobbin but I’ve good set of splicing needles so do it that way…. Not too fiddly once you get used to it 🙂 

I only splice when using hollow core braid.

[JonC]

43 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

You can get a PR bobbin from Terry at Jigabite for less than £30.

Mine is a trabucco from Italy and cost me £44.

I am pretty sure the Shimano is not available in the UK.

 

https://www.desertcart.co.uk/products/32327491-shimano-th-202n-bobbin-knotter-knot-machine-heavy-p-e-1-5-8-black-413352?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIurSjhMv0_QIVkN_tCh0nugXiEAQYASABEgJ42PD_BwE

[GPSguru]

13 minutes ago, JonC said:

https://www.desertcart.co.uk/products/32327491-shimano-th-202n-bobbin-knotter-knot-machine-heavy-p-e-1-5-8-black-413352?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIurSjhMv0_QIVkN_tCh0nugXiEAQYASABEgJ42PD_BwE

2 years ago, I tried to get the shimano from both a USA supplier and an Oz supplier. Both told me that they were not allowed by shimano to ship that product to the EU market. I guess that may have changed.

[GPSguru]

The FG, PR, and Bimini (loop) are all based on the Chinese finger principle, i.e. the harder you pull, the tighter it gets. Also the load is spread through the whole length of the knot ( think cable pulling sleeve), so the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. 

[Andy135]

13 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

 so the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. 

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

[Saintly Fish]

1 hour ago, Andy135 said:

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

Or..... your not tying it right??

[Andy135]

Just now, Saintly Fish said:

Or..... your not tying it right??

You're missing the point. It becomes almost impossible to put sufficient tension on more than around 25 wraps, so if you use, say 30 wraps, the first 5 won't be under tension, even if you follow every other part of the process correctly. So my point was that @GPSguru is only partially right in saying that the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. Too long isn't actually helpful in this case.

[Saintly Fish]

7 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

You're missing the point. It becomes almost impossible to put sufficient tension on more than around 25 wraps, so if you use, say 30 wraps, the first 5 won't be under tension, even if you follow every other part of the process correctly. So my point was that @GPSguru is only partially right in saying that the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. Too long isn't actually helpful in this case.

Or your not tying it right!!

[Andy135]

4 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Or your not tying it right!!

[Saintly Fish]

Just now, Andy135 said:

So 24 is ok, but 25 is too many?

[Andy135]

1 minute ago, Saintly Fish said:

So 24 is ok, but 25 is too many?

No. 25 is ok, but not 26. 26 is waaaaay too many.

[GPSguru]

1 hour ago, Andy135 said:

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

Even tension will only be applied over length of knot IF ALL THE WRAPS are applied with equal tension. The PR bobbin makes a better job of the tension than could ever be applied by hand.

As a time served transmission and cable balancing engineer, there is a formula for length of pull sleeve ( Chinese finger) given cable dia, and pull tonnage. This would be equally applicable to line dia vs BS.

 

[Malc]

3 hours ago, GPSguru said:

I only splice when using hollow core braid.

This is the only splicing you should be doing...

...but with gunpowder proof rum.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Malc
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