JonC Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I’ve been looking at getting one of the above, not sure the best thing to have? More important what’s best for me to put on my kids? I see there are AIS beacons available , would I be able to see them with an Ais receiver that is commonly available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I bought a PLB in preparation for an Alderney trip that got covid-cancelled last year. I went for a PLB because it's small, light and is registered to the individual rather than the vessel, meaning I can take it anywhere that I'd want to be rescued from e.g. up a mountain - it doesn't have to be used only on the water. EPIRB's are registered to the vessel. If one of your kids went MOB an EPIRB would be no good, but a PLB clipped to their lifejacket would locate them (assuming they knew how/were able to activate it). On a more sombre note, another reason I have a PLB permanently clipped to my lifejacket is so that if I ever go MOB and don't survive, at least my body can be recovered, meaning that my wife and family don't have to wait the seven years or whatever it is for a missing person to be assumed dead and granted a death certificate etc. Just means that it makes a shit situation slightly less shit than it could be for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 49 minutes ago, Andy135 said: I bought a PLB in preparation for an Alderney trip that got covid-cancelled last year. I went for a PLB because it's small, light and is registered to the individual rather than the vessel, meaning I can take it anywhere that I'd want to be rescued from e.g. up a mountain - it doesn't have to be used only on the water. EPIRB's are registered to the vessel. If one of your kids went MOB an EPIRB would be no good, but a PLB clipped to their lifejacket would locate them (assuming they knew how/were able to activate it). On a more sombre note, another reason I have a PLB permanently clipped to my lifejacket is so that if I ever go MOB and don't survive, at least my body can be recovered, meaning that my wife and family don't have to wait the seven years or whatever it is for a missing person to be assumed dead and granted a death certificate etc. Just means that it makes a shit situation slightly less shit than it could be for them. Yes I think plb is a better option for my application. Do you have just one or some for your crew (kids) as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I only have one, bought for a long-range trip to Alderney, but I would certainly consider investing in one per kid, particularly as they get older/taller and more easily able to lean over the rails that bit too far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 The AIS beacon seems like a good idea, a scenario that I could visualise happening is someone going overboard in a rough sea or at night and not being able to see them. The ones I’ve looked at though need to be manually activated, something that I couldn’t be 100% certain would happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, JonC said: The ones I’ve looked at though need to be manually activated, something that I couldn’t be 100% certain would happen All PLB's also need to be manually activated, as water immersion activation is not allowed or part of the spec, however, EPIRBS are immersion activated and only start transmitting once your boat has sunk. AIS unit are fine for mutl crewed pugwash boats and that is about where their usefulness stops. I tend to fish on my own quite a bit, so I have an Ocean Rescue PLB1 on my LJ in a dedicated pocket. A PLB is easier to use than a radio and 100% will get an SAR response. Where you are in the Thames, the following may not apply ............ if you fish close inshore then there are many situations where a handheld will not be received by the CG, usually in areas where there are high cliffs. A PLB only needs a clear view of the sky when it fires off the 405Mhz digital rescue beacon which is received by one of the Cospas - Sarsat geostationary birds. It is then down linked to an earth station who call the relevant command centre for the country of origin. The country of origin code is buried in the hex code continually sent by the PLB. The PLB also sends a GPS LAT/LOG with every burst for the battery life of the device (usually 24hrs or grater). Additionally, it also transmits a 121Mhz distress homing beacon for the SAR boats and choppers to home in you at close range. To arm a PLB is a simple button push, which on the PLB1 is located under a spring loaded flap. The unit serial number is also sent in the Hex code and the rescue service will interrogate the beacon data base for all your detail ........ Regardless of where you are in the sea, a PLB will get a response and you will be rescued................ with AIS you are hoping that another vessel with AIS has AIS beacon mode enabled to alert them of a distress, on my boat and most others I know of, this feature is turned off as it is a PITA for false alarms. Look Here .......... https://www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/ Look here ........... https://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ Edited January 13, 2021 by GPSguru Saintly Fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, GPSguru said: All PLB's also need to be manually activated, as water immersion activation is not allowed or part of the spec, however, EPIRBS are immersion activated and only start transmitting once your boat has sunk. AIS unit are fine for mutl crewed pugwash boats and that is about where their usefulness stops. I tend to fish on my own quite a bit, so I have an Ocean Rescue PLB1 on my LJ in a dedicated pocket. A PLB is easier to use than a radio and 100% will get an SAR response. Where you are in the Thames, the follow may not apply ............ if you fish close inshore then there are many situations where a handheld will not be received by the CG, usually in areas where there are high cliffs. A PLB only needs a clear view of the sky when it fires off the 405Mhz digital rescue beacon which is received by one of the Cospas - Sarsat geostationary birds. It is then down linked to an earth station who call the relevant command centre for the country of origin. The country of origin code is buried in the hex code continually sent by the PLB. The PLB also sends a GPS LAT/LOG with every burst for the battery life of the device (usually 24hrs or grater). Additionally, it also transmits a 121Mhz distress homing beacon for the SAR boats and choppers to home in you at close range. To arm a PLB is a simple button push, which on the PLB1 is located under a spring loaded flap. The unit serial number is also sent in the Hex code and the rescue service will interrogate the beacon data base for all your detail ........ Regardless of where you are in the sea, a PLB will get a response and you will be rescued................ with AIS you are hoping that another vessel with AIS has AIS beacon mode enabled to alert them of a distress, on my boat and most others I know of, this feature is turned off as it is a PITA for false alarms. Look Here .......... https://www.cospas-sarsat.int/en/ Look here ........... https://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ Thanks that’s a pretty comprehensive answer to my question, so my best bet is to go out and get a couple of PLBs for me and my boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, JonC said: Thanks that’s a pretty comprehensive answer to my question, so my best bet is to go out and get a couple of PLBs for me and my boy. Yes, but if you always fish together then one would be ok ................ if your boy every went overboard I assume that you would deploy MOB tactics, 1, immediately mark your position with the MOB marker on your plotter. 2. maintain visual on the MOB 3. Do a Williamson turn and pickup the MOB ........ If you went MOB and your boy was left on the boat, then the PLB is of more use. If your boat was sinking, or sunk, then you would (or should) safety line your two LJ's together and set off your PLB before you abandon ship .......... I carry 3 such safety line on the RIB (1.5m 3 strand nylon with spring-loaded carabiners spliced on each end) JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 My boy is up to speed with most basic safety, he did a pb2 course a couple of years ago when he was 15, though I do remember him motoring over the MOB marker boy. Good idea about the lanyard setup also. GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, JonC said: Good idea about the lanyard setup also Not only does it keep you together it also makes a better heat source if you huddle together ........... something i learnt from my long association wit the RNLI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch_Egg2012 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 I had the RNLI out to do a safety check a couple of years back, free service they offer where they attend your boat and give guidance. They recommended a PLB over an EPIRB for the reasons given by GPSGuru above. JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Here is some more info on the global Cospas - Sarsat system, which every PLB and EPIRB in the world alerts to .................... Also, here is more in on the PLB Hex ID .......... it is MANDATORY to register your PLB in the UK ............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Interesting debate..... EPIRB is perhaps more suited for my boat. If we were to go down, EPIRB woukd go off and it’s all pile in the liferaft. My boat is less open than others, it’s previously had a COP for 60 miles offshore so high gunnels, stability tested etc. However PLB would allow the rescue services to find my body assuming I triggered it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) Epirb's aren't only activated when they are in the water, you can manually set them off just the same as plb's using the activation button. Epirb's have longer life battery's which can be far more of an advantage to long range voyages where it might take some time to reach people that may be in life rafts. The epirb can be joined to the raft by its attached lanyard, which gives the crew more time to concentrate on other priorities such as injuries etc. If a boat has been swamped or rolled over the crew can concentrate on holding on with both hands to the overturned hull rather than trying to hold the plb upright with one hand. Epirbs are designed to be used in the marine environment, they float the correct way up by themselves, they use the water surface around them in the water like a large reflector to greatly improve the speed and accuracy of being found. PLB's often need to be kept the correct way up by a conscious person with the aerial held upright. Those who think their plb will sit the right way attached to their life jacket when they are in the water should perhaps test this at a local pool or the beach in summer. An inflating lifejacket won't hold the plb in the same way it does when its not inflated. Edited January 13, 2021 by JDP GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 14 minutes ago, JDP said: PLB's often need to be kept the correct way up by a conscious person with the aerial held upright. Those who think their plb will sit the right way attached to their life jacket when they are in the water should perhaps test this at a local pool or the beach in summer. An inflating lifejacket won't hold the plb in the same way it does when its not inflated. Jon - this could be a teachable moment for us both. What you say above may well be correct but you're in danger of sounding negative over PLB's but without suggesting a better alternative. I'm sure you didn't intend this, but in the spirit of transparent feedback it's how I interpreted your post. If not PLB's then what? We can't use EPIRB's for individuals, so what would you suggest if a PLB is not the answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, JDP said: Those who think their plb will sit the right way attached to their life jacket when they are in the water should perhaps test this at a local pool or the beach in summer. An inflating lifejacket won't hold the plb in the same it does when its not inflated. Totally agree ............ PLB's are designed to be handheld. The PLB1 that I use will only float in its flotation case, which must be permanently attached for the Australian market. However, you guys make some very long and remote trips, whereas here in the UK many private angling boats are never much more than 15 - 20 miles from land. OK folk like @Odyssey and myself tend to go a lot further, and on a decent day I could be on the wrecks at 50miles out (that is out past the channel light vessel @45 miles). It is those circumstances that could persuade me that an EPIRB is a better option, however, in the RIB, even with a catastrophic hull failure it would still float. Also, at that distance out, I am right in the middle of the English Channel shipping lanes, and it is extremely busy out there. It is one of the few places where I switch on the all round white light and sometimes put up a black ball when drifting on a wreck. TBF, 99& of the large ships out there are extremely professional and will see m on AIS and often ask my intentions (ie. pass to stern etc) .......... some just pass the time of day and ask how the fishing is ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, Andy135 said: We can't use EPIRB's for individuals No, but it can be part of your boat ............. When the Joanna C went down it was the EPIRB that alerted the CG via the MCC ............ if the crew had PLB's then possibly 2 of the crew could have been saved, unfortunately only the skipper survived and another crew drowned in his bunk, another floated away after succumbing to hypothermia and has never been found. When the Mary (I can't remember the full name) went down 6 miles off Brixham the EPIRB never surfaced and was caught up in the wreck .......... the 2 crew survived, but the skipper was found in the wheelhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, GPSguru said: Totally agree ............ PLB's are designed to be handheld. The PLB1 that I use will only float in its flotation case, which must be permanently attached for the Australian market. However, you guys make some very long and remote trips, whereas here in the UK many private angling boats are never much more than 15 - 20 miles from land. OK folk like @Odyssey and myself tend to go a lot further, and on a decent day I could be on the wrecks at 50miles out (that is out past the channel light vessel @45 miles). It is those circumstances that could persuade me that an EPIRB is a better option, however, in the RIB, even with a catastrophic hull failure it would still float. Also, at that distance out, I am right in the middle of the English Channel shipping lanes, and it is extremely busy out there. It is one of the few places where I switch on the all round white light and sometimes put up a black ball when drifting on a wreck. TBF, 99& of the large ships out there are extremely professional and will see m on AIS and often ask my intentions (ie. pass to stern etc) .......... some just pass the time of day and ask how the fishing is ! I sometimes think the radio operators must be so bored/fed up of crew mates they fancy a chat 🤣 GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just now, GPSguru said: No, but it can be part of your boat ............. Yes, I get that, but that's not really solving the problem for Jon (and I) in that if one of our crew (kids) goes MOB, a PLB seems to offer the best solution for recovery if we can't maintain eyes on them. An EPIRB wouldn't be relevant or useful in this situation but a PLB could. However, @JDP's points are well made about needing to see open sky and be manually activated - both of these conditions may not be met if a kid is MOB, hence my question "if not a PLB, then what?" GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just now, Andy135 said: Yes, I get that, but that's not really solving the problem for Jon (and I) in that if one of our crew (kids) goes MOB, a PLB seems to offer the best solution for recovery if we can't maintain eyes on them. An EPIRB wouldn't be relevant or useful in this situation but a PLB could. However, @JDP's points are well made about needing to see open sky and be manually activated - both of these conditions may not be met if a kid is MOB, hence my question "if not a PLB, then what?" I may have answered my own question... I might think about strapping an auto-deployed danboy canister to their LJ's so that eyeballing them when MOB is that much easier. GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, Andy135 said: Jon - this could be a teachable moment for us both. What you say above may well be correct but you're in danger of sounding negative over PLB's but without suggesting a better alternative. I'm sure you didn't intend this, but in the spirit of transparent feedback it's how I interpreted your post. If not PLB's then what? We can't use EPIRB's for individuals, so what would you suggest if a PLB is not the answer? Apologies if it came across that way, with have their merit and yes you can carry both at sea. Yes the epirb is registered to the boat and the individual who registered it. I can take my epirb on any boat and if its activated rescue will come to the location its activated from. The people who are registered contacts would be contacted by search and rescue, these contacts could easily explain we are on a different vessel. Both of the top of the page videos gps guru posted backup up what plb and epirb's should be used for. In the first video they show vessels with epirbs onboard and people on land with plb's placing them on rocks or clear settings with the aerial pointing upright. The second video does show a person in a raft holding a plb, not leaving it to float by itself like you can with an epirb . Holding a plb upright by hand, hopefully not for the full duration of the battery. The reason an epirb is a compulsory requirement on vessels more than 2nm here is because they are a marine beacon, a plb may well get you found but they have several things against them. As mentioned I carry both but from last years marine skippers marine training from both water police and maritime, Plb's don't cut it on the water but can be carried as a second backup. I have an Epirb, Plb, Garmin in reach, fixed vhf and handheld. I only carry the plb because I already have it for inland wilderness ventures as well as the inreach. If I had to make the choice of holding on to a person or maybe a couple of people or stuff around trying to get a plb to sit the right way up, I know what I would choose. Andy135 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, JDP said: Plb's don't cut it on the water Sorry Jon, but for the UK I have to disagree ........... PLB's have saved numerous lives in the UK in the marine environment................ JDP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 The chances of a small vessel going straight down with the epirb onboard would be pretty slim in the boats we have, don't you have built in buoyancy in the boats over there ? New regs are being brought in for vessels over a certain size to have the epirbs that float away like life rafts do. Epirbs have to be fitted at locations you can easily reach from the helm, which most people could still reach if the boat is overturned. If I was fishing the locations I used to fish from the IOW (St Catherins, Needles, Channel Islands etc ) I wouldn't carry the same amount of safety gear I carry here and obviously others wouldn't either. How much are epirbs and plb's with you guys. Both are the same cost pretty much for the gps high accuracy models with 10 year battery's, which are about $250 or 125 quid or 12.50 per year for the life of the unit. Often I could be out at sea with the epirb and two radios, while one of my daughters is inland doing snake research carrying the plb and my eldest daughter also off hunting in wilderness areas carrying the Garmin in reach, all of us out of phone reception area. My 16 year old daughter had to use a plb and organise an air rescue last year when one of the group of scientist she was with fell from a cliff while doing snake research. She had to take over the situation when the adults she was with seemed to lose the plot and go into headless chicken panic mode. This also involved leading paramedics through dence vegetation several kms without a gps because the guy who fell off the cliff had the gps and sat phone, both smashed from the 30m fall into rocks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) Here you go ........... this is a post I have copied from Ribnet, he was setting off from Wales to jion the Round Ireland trip in 2013 in a Gemini RB4 550 (5.5m). Quite an experienced helm, but that day he just got it wrong ............. The only incorrect assumption in the text is the 'waiting for a satellite pass' .......... the reality of today is that once you have hit the 'go' button then you are being recieved by the bird in a little over 1 min .......... your GPS LAT/Log takes about 4 mins ....... I have checked this info with Ocean Rescue at Southampton, who took a lot of care to explain the whole process to me (he knew I was a retired SAT Comm engineer) hello all... as am sure you would like details...here goes. I arrived Neyland at 11 am just in time to see everyone leaving. I still had to fuel the boat and stow kit so was taking my time. No intention to catch people up, and was going to take my time crossing to conserve fuel. Set off at 2 pm, after launching, parking car and trailer etc . Out of the sound I hit the overfalls Paul Glaetzal describes. Lumpy confused chop, not too dissimilar to conditions off Tynemouth in the North Sea, where I usually boat. It would smooth out, get lumpy again, smooth out etc etc. I was transiting at around 14 to 28 knots depending on conditions. We have all been in seas like it ...you have to look 3 crests ahead plot your route etc etc. Had hit a smoother section and got the boat back up to 24 knots from 17. I had just checked the SOG on the plotter about 20 seconds before coming out of the boat. The crest that caught me out looked no different to those I had been crssing on the journey, except this had the mother of all holes on the other side. The boat came down off the crest tipped to starboard and just fell, and I fell faster. The jocky seat wrenched out of the floor with the force. It was held in with 6 stainless dome head M8's. The seat stayed in the boat. I hit shoulder first. Kill cord worked instantly. One of the first things I noticed in the water was it wrapped tightly round my leg, so I started looking for the boat. After the disorientation and initial water swallowing, I pulled the inflator on my jacket. One of the first things my hand touched was the back plate from my Entel Vhf which was not attched to the rest of the unit. The hand held was attached to the right shoulder of the lifejack in the velcro and webbing nest Baltic provide for it, aerial looped through a webbing pocket. It must have disintegrated when I hit the water as apart from that initial piece of plastic from the unit my hand touched I never saw any more bits or parts of it. My PLB - its a GME unit - was attached in to the webbing nest built into the harness of my jacket, I felt for it and it was there. First priority was firing it to let someone know what had happened. I looked at the RIB it seemd to be around 100 metres away from me in the water, but in reality I knew that distance would be further. I also was not going to be able to get to it with lifejacket inflated, just trying to get upright I was worried I would tip onto my face. My Gecko was still attached, I wore it throughout the rescue. Am sure it absorbed some of that initial contact with the water, and as time dragged on it kept my head warm. I firred up the PLB and lay back with it on my chest. It started beeping and flashing. Looked at my watch about 10 minutes after I had gone in, it was 3.45pm. I knew they take up to 30 mins to get a pass from a sat, but was concerned that the impact with the water had possibly damaged the unit. at 4.10pm the unit made a very short set of extended beeps, easy to miss with my Gecko on. This on reflection was the sound of the satellite transmit working (it was a GPS equipped unit) I had been in the water approx 30 mins at that point. The RIB would sometimes come closer and then 2 mins later would seem much further away. After an hour in the water , the temptation to try to get to the boat was massive. I knew it would mean deflating the bladders on the jacket, but I didnt want to let go of the PLB and swimming in the dry suit, jacket, gecko combo is nigh impossible. I floated around in circles, crossed my feet pulled in my arms to my sides. The inflated chambers of the jacket blocked a lot of peripheral view. My view was like a gun barrel down the sides of the chambers, so to look for anything I had to paddle myself through 360 degrees. I saw a yacht around maybe 500 metres off, but couldnt attract its attention. Looked at my watch - it was 5.00 pm. In the water around 1 hr 15 minutes. Water was cold but with really warm pockets and currents flowing through it, sun was shining, the swell was running at around 2 or 3 feet I would estimate. I looked at the watch again at 5.15 pm. Knew it was around one and half hours since I had gone in. With no way of knowing if the PLB signal had been received, I was beginning to get just a little bit concerned. I could sometimes see the Echomax on the A frame of the RIB over the swells, maybe 250 to 300 metres away. at 5.20 pm and just starting to feel a little chill, and getting cramps in my legs, I let some of the air out of my jacket and contemplated getting myself someohow to the RIB. I saw the funnel of the Irish Ferries ship then, maybe 500 to 800 metres behind my rib, and about a minute later heard the Seaking from Chivenor. They positioned themseves round 20 metres off the water, hovering facing me. I made a signal to try to tell them just me (one) and pointed at myself as I expect they were looking for any additonal people in the water. They put the diver in, and he hooked me up and 15 secs later I was in the helo, looking down at all the pax on the Irish ferries boat enjoying the view. I asked the winchman to go back down to my RIB as soon as I was on the helo, they asked about injuries how I felt...I said I was fine, I have a massive dent in my pride but otherwise fine. They conferred with MHCG and then winched me back into my boat. There was a Dive Boat on scene then and he asked about intentions, I was contemplating keeping going to Kilmore quay until I saw the state of my seat, so I agreed to wait for St Davids lifeboat ad followed that into Milford Haven, where the Angle lifeboat met me and went with me to Neyland. Apart from the seat, the Rib is fine. Apart from a big bruise on my shoulder, I am fine. I was so cross with myself for the ejection. As I was going over in that split second, it was running through my mind, how am I going to explain this then ! I was disappointed about the VHF but in the circumstances of the impact, makes sense I guess. I woud like PLB/EPIRB manufacturs to install some way of bouncing back a signal to a beacon - some tell tale fool proof way / big red light or something, that is activated on your beacon when your distress signal is received. Another 10 or 15 minutes and I may have attempted to get back to the RIB with a poor result. Big thanks to the Chivenor crew who I think were a little "surprised" that I wanted to get back on the RIB when they picked me up, the St Davids and Angle crews for the escort and chat, and the Coastguard at Neyland for sorting a berth at the marina (and some fish and chips - hungry business this rescue stuff). and yes I am lucky - and yes I love my boating kit. Edited January 13, 2021 by GPSguru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, GPSguru said: Sorry Jon, but for the UK I have to disagree ........... PLB's have saved numerous lives in the UK in the marine environment................ No apologies needed, I don't make up the regulations we have or teach what the lecturers are teaching. How are you keeping yours the right way up while in the water, is it attached to your buoyancy aid ? GPSguru 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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