GPSguru Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JDP said: ow are you keeping yours the right way up while in the water, is it attached to your buoyancy aid ? Yes, it is attached to my LJ (Seago 3d dynamic) on a long lanyard. The idea is that you lay back and hold it on your chest ............... Read the above and note what happened to his handheld radio when he hit the water ! Edited January 13, 2021 by GPSguru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, GPSguru said: Here you go ........... this is a post I have copied from Ribnet, he was setting off from Wales to jion the Round Ireland trip in 2013 in a Gemini RB4 550 (5.5m). Quite an experienced helm, but that day he just got it wrong ............. The only incorrect assumption in the text is the 'waiting for a satellite pass' .......... the reality of today is that once you have hit the 'go' button then you are being recieved by the bird in a little over 1 min .......... your GPsS LAT/Log takes about 4 mins hello all... as am sure you would like details...here goes. I arrived Neyland at 11 am just in time to see everyone leaving. I still had to fuel the boat and stow kit so was taking my time. No intention to catch people up, and was going to take my time crossing to conserve fuel. Set off at 2 pm, after launching, parking car and trailer etc . Out of the sound I hit the overfalls Paul Glaetzal describes. Lumpy confused chop, not too dissimilar to conditions off Tynemouth in the North Sea, where I usually boat. It would smooth out, get lumpy again, smooth out etc etc. I was transiting at around 14 to 28 knots depending on conditions. We have all been in seas like it ...you have to look 3 crests ahead plot your route etc etc. Had hit a smoother section and got the boat back up to 24 knots from 17. I had just checked the SOG on the plotter about 20 seconds before coming out of the boat. The crest that caught me out looked no different to those I had been crssing on the journey, except this had the mother of all holes on the other side. The boat came down off the crest tipped to starboard and just fell, and I fell faster. The jocky seat wrenched out of the floor with the force. It was held in with 6 stainless dome head M8's. The seat stayed in the boat. I hit shoulder first. Kill cord worked instantly. One of the first things I noticed in the water was it wrapped tightly round my leg, so I started looking for the boat. After the disorientation and initial water swallowing, I pulled the inflator on my jacket. One of the first things my hand touched was the back plate from my Entel Vhf which was not attched to the rest of the unit. The hand held was attached to the right shoulder of the lifejack in the velcro and webbing nest Baltic provide for it, aerial looped through a webbing pocket. It must have disintegrated when I hit the water as apart from that initial piece of plastic from the unit my hand touched I never saw any more bits or parts of it. My PLB - its a GME unit - was attached in to the webbing nest built into the harness of my jacket, I felt for it and it was there. First priority was firing it to let someone know what had happened. I looked at the RIB it seemd to be around 100 metres away from me in the water, but in reality I knew that distance would be further. I also was not going to be able to get to it with lifejacket inflated, just trying to get upright I was worried I would tip onto my face. My Gecko was still attached, I wore it throughout the rescue. Am sure it absorbed some of that initial contact with the water, and as time dragged on it kept my head warm. I firred up the PLB and lay back with it on my chest. It started beeping and flashing. Looked at my watch about 10 minutes after I had gone in, it was 3.45pm. I knew they take up to 30 mins to get a pass from a sat, but was concerned that the impact with the water had possibly damaged the unit. at 4.10pm the unit made a very short set of extended beeps, easy to miss with my Gecko on. This on reflection was the sound of the satellite transmit working (it was a GPS equipped unit) I had been in the water approx 30 mins at that point. The RIB would sometimes come closer and then 2 mins later would seem much further away. After an hour in the water , the temptation to try to get to the boat was massive. I knew it would mean deflating the bladders on the jacket, but I didnt want to let go of the PLB and swimming in the dry suit, jacket, gecko combo is nigh impossible. I floated around in circles, crossed my feet pulled in my arms to my sides. The inflated chambers of the jacket blocked a lot of peripheral view. My view was like a gun barrel down the sides of the chambers, so to look for anything I had to paddle myself through 360 degrees. I saw a yacht around maybe 500 metres off, but couldnt attract its attention. Looked at my watch - it was 5.00 pm. In the water around 1 hr 15 minutes. Water was cold but with really warm pockets and currents flowing through it, sun was shining, the swell was running at around 2 or 3 feet I would estimate. I looked at the watch again at 5.15 pm. Knew it was around one and half hours since I had gone in. With no way of knowing if the PLB signal had been received, I was beginning to get just a little bit concerned. I could sometimes see the Echomax on the A frame of the RIB over the swells, maybe 250 to 300 metres away. at 5.20 pm and just starting to feel a little chill, and getting cramps in my legs, I let some of the air out of my jacket and contemplated getting myself someohow to the RIB. I saw the funnel of the Irish Ferries ship then, maybe 500 to 800 metres behind my rib, and about a minute later heard the Seaking from Chivenor. They positioned themseves round 20 metres off the water, hovering facing me. I made a signal to try to tell them just me (one) and pointed at myself as I expect they were looking for any additonal people in the water. They put the diver in, and he hooked me up and 15 secs later I was in the helo, looking down at all the pax on the Irish ferries boat enjoying the view. I asked the winchman to go back down to my RIB as soon as I was on the helo, they asked about injuries how I felt...I said I was fine, I have a massive dent in my pride but otherwise fine. They conferred with MHCG and then winched me back into my boat. There was a Dive Boat on scene then and he asked about intentions, I was contemplating keeping going to Kilmore quay until I saw the state of my seat, so I agreed to wait for St Davids lifeboat ad followed that into Milford Haven, where the Angle lifeboat met me and went with me to Neyland. Apart from the seat, the Rib is fine. Apart from a big bruise on my shoulder, I am fine. I was so cross with myself for the ejection. As I was going over in that split second, it was running through my mind, how am I going to explain this then ! I was disappointed about the VHF but in the circumstances of the impact, makes sense I guess. I woud like PLB/EPIRB manufacturs to install some way of bouncing back a signal to a beacon - some tell tale fool proof way / big red light or something, that is activated on your beacon when your distress signal is received. Another 10 or 15 minutes and I may have attempted to get back to the RIB with a poor result. Big thanks to the Chivenor crew who I think were a little "surprised" that I wanted to get back on the RIB when they picked me up, the St Davids and Angle crews for the escort and chat, and the Coastguard at Neyland for sorting a berth at the marina (and some fish and chips - hungry business this rescue stuff). and yes I am lucky - and yes I love my boating kit. Totally agree the epirb wouldn't be much help to him there, the fact that once you have any kind of bouncy aid on its very hard and slow going trying to get back to a vessel and rib in the wind is certainly not going to be caught up with. Also the fact people don't connect their kill switch lanyard to themselves is pretty dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Makes sitting in my warm dry cabin more appealing.... JonC and Andy135 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Thinking back to when I first started as a marine rescue volunteer 19 years ago Ive still yet to go out on a epirb or plb rescue. So far they have been phone, radio or radio relay. Is that just good luck or the fact very few boaters very get into a true emergency. In saying that we do get a fair amount of fatalities at our local bar crossing, one of the most recent were two commercial fishermen Ive fished with. I have had the argument with maritime about why a plb should be allowed as a legal requirement (simply to save me buying both) but they won't have a bar of it, yes carry one as a personal backup but the Pomy bloke over here in charge of the regulations won't budge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Odyssey said: Makes sitting in my warm dry cabin more appealing.... We had to do a recovery of people sitting in their cabin a few years ago. New boaters with a nice new boat they decided to try and pull their stuck anchor from the stern with. When the boat got swamped by a wave over the stern and overturned they all got trapped in the cabin because they were wearing auto inflating life jackets. No epirb, plb or anything else was going to save them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, JDP said: We had to do a recovery of people sitting in their cabin a few years ago. New boaters with a nice new boat they decided to try and pull their stuck anchor from the stern with. When the boat got swamped by a wave over the stern and overturned they all got trapped in the cabin because they were wearing auto inflating life jackets. No epirb, plb or anything else was going to save them. I looked at the risk of self inflating vs manual and with a cabin I went with manaul. I have seen a “larger” gentleman stuck in a companion way on his sailing boat when he set his life jacket off by accident..... (I was in a lock at the time) I don’t have booms flapping around to knock me out so if I do go overboard I just got to hope I don’t knock myself out Edited January 14, 2021 by Odyssey JDP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiDfish Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Auto lifejackets can be dangerous. From many years working in fresh and saltwater, I've had auto's jam me underwater on three occasions, once under a screen in a strong current, once when I slipped on a quay and got jammed underwater under the boat trailer by the jacket, and once when a pontoon collapsed and I ended up under it, jammed there. I only use the auto when on my own in an open boat now. The firing capsule is velcroed to the shoulder of the jacket in a waterproof pouch when not in use. On my own I always use a 5 metre safety lanyard (kill cord 2 metres), clipped to the boat (foam filled). At all times on the boat I have a Cobra GPS/DSC/Bluetooth waterproof radio. Phone is in an aquapack inside my clothing. So I have radio, dsc and phone available when it all goes tits up. I also ALWAYS carry a knife on me to puncture a lifejacket/cut the safety cord if necessary. I don't really know if a PLB would add anything, and they're bloody expensive here! JDP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordmac Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 YBW have an article on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 19 hours ago, SiDfish said: Auto lifejackets can be dangerous. From many years working in fresh and saltwater, I've had auto's jam me underwater on three occasions, once under a screen in a strong current, once when I slipped on a quay and got jammed underwater under the boat trailer by the jacket, and once when a pontoon collapsed and I ended up under it, jammed there. Have you got any video evidence of this, strictly for academic reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiDfish Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 Wish I did have video! These were random 'accidents' at work, the one with the boat trailer being especially bad as it was a twin chamber jacket and squashed all of the air out of me. I forgot in the earlier post that a new twin chamber jackets zips jammed on a MOB excercise, causing the jacket to inflate upwards around the back of the head/neck and forcing the face underwater. I would always advise people to test their jackets by being in the water in it and inflating, just so they know what to expect when all goes tits up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, SiDfish said: I would always advise people to test their jackets by being in the water in it and inflating, just so they know what to expect when all goes tits up. I did just that with my son last year. Made him jump off the pontoon with his auto jacket on. Just so he could experience the action so that if he ever needed it he wouldn’t be shocked. Then of course the next week after I’d re armed and packet the jacket, he wanted to do it again . jonnyswamp, GPSguru, SiDfish and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiDfish Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 The other obvious thing is to carry re-arming kits on the boat. Jackets often go off due to moisture penetration alone. I ziplock bag them, then vac seal to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captin slows old outlaw Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 thats a lot of info. but what about us small boaters 20 ft ect, .what is neaded in the solent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 56 minutes ago, captin slows old outlaw said: thats a lot of info. but what about us small boaters 20 ft ect, .what is neaded in the solent The bare minimum is a decent life jacket and a hand held water proof vhf. An plb pinned to your life jacket too if you can afford one. captin slows old outlaw and Maverick 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) On 1/27/2021 at 3:56 PM, SiDfish said: Jackets often go off due to moisture penetration alone. It might have happened with ancient systems, but the modern Firing mechs require the bobbin to be immersed for 3 second s to dissolve and fire the cylinder. I have an open boat and always have a lifejacket on, sea spray and really heavy rain has never inadvertently fired the jacket. Many industries that wear jackets as part of their work use auto's and the staff certainly work in wet weather. However, it is always recommended (included in COP) that auto lifejackets are not stored with wet clothing like oil skin etc, they should be placed on a hanger in a dry area. This is to avoid any partial dissolving of the bobbin over and extended time period. Mine are normally kept on the back seat of the Jeep .......... The only time I have ever had an auto fire unexpectedly was when putting a Bayliner classic on a trailer and the stern roller flipped over, so I bent down into the water to free it, 3 seconds later there was a muffled bang, and I was floating off down the estuary on the outgoing tide 🤣 Luckily I floated toward the quay wall and was able to climb out on the ladder. Edited January 28, 2021 by GPSguru captin slows old outlaw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy135 Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 The Hammar firing heads are triggered by water pressure from submersion, so don't go off with just moist environmental air, if I remember correctly. JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) for Lifejackets and buoyancy aids the British Standard is BS EN ISO 12402-4:2020 , which is priced at £186 ! The HSE COP is publicly available HSE.pdf Edited January 28, 2021 by GPSguru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, Andy135 said: The Hammar firing heads are triggered by water pressure from submersion, so don't go off with just moist environmental air, if I remember correctly. Indeed ....... https://www.cmhammar.com/products/personal-safety-mob/lifejacket-inflator/in-water-performance/ Probably the most common is the UML Mk5 which has the traditional bobbin arrangement. https://www.uml.co.uk/products.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiDfish Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 In the EA, 16yrs ago, we weren't allowed to use the Hammar firers, they were considered unsafe as you can drown in a few inches of water face down! With the dissolving heads, we removed (hand screw off) and left by heater vents in the truck. Where they become dangerous is confined spaces, as I've highlighted earlier, which is why I only use them out in the open. We had a drill, and it worked, even when deep wading where the firer would have gone off incessantly. We were told to not go into water more than knee deep, which precluded 90% of our work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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