GPSguru Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 4 hours ago, JonC said: Well that was a waste of time and money ☹️ Definitely a job that needed doing, and maybe saved yourself a ton of work and expense in the future. Are ALL the glowplugs ok, and more importantly, is the glowplug activation system working correctly. Is yours a timed relay, or time determined by the engine ECU based on the ambient temp ? Does your secondary fuel filter have a derv heater in it ? Also, is your battery system good enough the support both the starter current and glowplug current without a significant voltage drop ? Edited February 16 by GPSguru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, GPSguru said: Definitely a job that needed doing, and maybe saved yourself a ton of work and expense in the future. Are ALL the glowplugs ok, and more importantly, is the glowplug activation system working correctly. Is yours a timed relay, or time determined by the engine ECU based on the ambient temp ? Does your secondary fuel filter have a derv heater in it ? Also, is your battery system good enough the support both the starter current and glowplug current without a significant voltage drop ? To say I’m peed off is an understatement. My glow plugs work ok, we took them all out two weeks ago, tested individually by having them in their own harness and running a cable to ground. They all glowed up nicely within the engine’s startup sequence so I think we can rule them out as being serviceable. I have a water separator- it’s a Separ which is a yank make version of a racor. The main filter has also been replaced recently and shows no signs of leakage. My batteries have plenty of power. They were a little low due to the cranking over the last few weeks but I put a charger on them overnight and they are all good. Im going to go sailing tomorrow. So much simpler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captin slows old outlaw Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 7 hours ago, JonC said: Well that was a waste of time and money ☹️ it could allways be distrbution pump at falt ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 8 minutes ago, captin slows old outlaw said: it could allways be distrbution pump at falt ? I’ve pondered upon this, but the high pressure pump doesn’t show any signs of leaking and the performance when running is very good. I have had Stuart who is ‘Arvor marine services’ out with me a few times including 2 weeks ago and he is always amazed how well it runs, far better than any other he’s been on. He goes all over the country every week servicing them so he sees plenty of similar boats. It isn’t hunting at all either so not drawing enough air in to cause that but it must still be leaking enough for the fuel to drain back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 4 minutes ago, JonC said: I’ve pondered upon this, but the high pressure pump doesn’t show any signs of leaking and the performance when running is very good. I have had Stuart who is ‘Arvor marine services’ out with me a few times including 2 weeks ago and he is always amazed how well it runs, far better than any other he’s been on. He goes all over the country every week servicing them so he sees plenty of similar boats. It isn’t hunting at all either so not drawing enough air in to cause that but it must still be leaking enough for the fuel to drain back. Has your spill pipe got a tiny non return valve in the last line back to the tank ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 16 minutes ago, GPSguru said: Has your spill pipe got a tiny non return valve in the last line back to the tank ? In the past I have put non return valves in both lines, I taken them out since as they offered no improvement. I also put stop cocks in both and have tried that but it has also not changed things. Tomorrow I will have another look, I may try running directly from a Jerry can ti bypass the water separator. The spill off pipe runs into a diesel cooler before it returns to the tank. This is almost under the engine so hard to access. I can’t see any leakage there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 44 minutes ago, JonC said: In the past I have put non return valves in both lines, I taken them out since as they offered no improvement. I also put stop cocks in both and have tried that but it has also not changed things. Tomorrow I will have another look, I may try running directly from a Jerry can ti bypass the water separator. The spill off pipe runs into a diesel cooler before it returns to the tank. This is almost under the engine so hard to access. I can’t see any leakage there though. Have you tried relocating your fuel tank to the roof?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 Just now, Saintly Fish said: Have you tried relocating your fuel tank to the roof?? If only I had a fly bridge. Saintly Fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 4 hours ago, JonC said: In the past I have put non return valves in both lines, I taken them out since as they offered no improvement. I also put stop cocks in both and have tried that but it has also not changed things. Tomorrow I will have another look, I may try running directly from a Jerry can ti bypass the water separator. The spill off pipe runs into a diesel cooler before it returns to the tank. This is almost under the engine so hard to access. I can’t see any leakage there though. If you have already tried non return valves in the spill, then I think we can discount that as the culprit. Thinking back, I had a similar issue with the Jeep about 2 or 3 years ago, which would only start with extended cranking. Eventually the engine stalled in the slipway car park and wouldn't start, so taking the easy option, I bled the fuel system, and it started straight up. The fuel housing on the Jeep is a Racor with a built in hand priming pump. I got a rebuild kit for the pump and replaced ALL the seals, however, the problem continued with air getting into the system, but no fuel leaking out. I also checked all the fuel flow and return lines for security right back to the tank and it was fine. That is usually a sign that air is being drawn in only when the engine is running, and then migrates to the injectors when the engine is stopped for a good while. The Jeep part for the fuel housing was listed as obsolete, but it is actually a very current product and I sourced one from the uk Racor distributor (circa £160), but the replacement was metric and the original (typical yank) was NPT, so I had to change all the fittings. However, this fixed the issue. Ok, are you happy with the secondary filter housing (usually the water separator), and that it is airtight, it might not leak, but is it airtight, as the secondary filter housing on a lot of diesel engines is a source of trouble. Another point, if you bleed the system BEFORE you start the engine, does it resolve the starting issue ? daio web 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 21 minutes ago, GPSguru said: If you have already tried non return valves in the spill, then I think we can discount that as the culprit. Thinking back, I had a similar issue with the Jeep about 2 or 3 years ago, which would only start with extended cranking. Eventually the engine stalled in the slipway car park and wouldn't start, so taking the easy option, I bled the fuel system, and it started straight up. The fuel housing on the Jeep is a Racor with a built in hand priming pump. I got a rebuild kit for the pump and replaced ALL the seals, however, the problem continued with air getting into the system, but no fuel leaking out. I also checked all the fuel flow and return lines for security right back to the tank and it was fine. That is usually a sign that air is being drawn in only when the engine is running, and then migrates to the injectors when the engine is stopped for a good while. The Jeep part for the fuel housing was listed as obsolete, but it is actually a very current product and I sourced one from the uk Racor distributor (circa £160), but the replacement was metric and the original (typical yank) was NPT, so I had to change all the fittings. However, this fixed the issue. Ok, are you happy with the secondary filter housing (usually the water separator), and that it is airtight, it might not leak, but is it airtight, as the secondary filter housing on a lot of diesel engines is a source of trouble. Another point, if you bleed the system BEFORE you start the engine, does it resolve the starting issue ? I don’t have a primer in my system, so it is hard to purge the air out of the system. This is normal for my engine apparently which is annoying. I don’t know if I fitted a primer if the fuel would pass through the high pressure pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 24 minutes ago, JonC said: I don’t have a primer in my system, so it is hard to purge the air out of the system. This is normal for my engine apparently which is annoying. I don’t know if I fitted a primer if the fuel would pass through the high pressure pump? Yes it would. On Diesel cars, I tend to prime by pulling diesel through the system using an Outboard bulb on the return line, which pulls fuel from the tank, through the HP pump, and fuel rail. However, if it is normal for your engine, then apart from being extremely feck'in annoying, it is really an issue ? or is it a common fault issue ? I guess you are very like me, and stuff should start 'on the button' 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 Just been down there. I took a drum of fuel with me, ran it to the engine bay filter, cracked the nut off the top of the filter to make sure there was no air in there. I turned the ignition on, so the stop solenoid would be open and primed the system. Absolute pig to start, but as ever running great once started. I will go back down tomorrow to see if it starts. This should eliminate the fuel standpipe and the water separator from my enquiries. I will try the primer bulb thing on the return line. GPSguru and daio web 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GPSguru Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 5 hours ago, JonC said: Just been down there. I took a drum of fuel with me, ran it to the engine bay filter, cracked the nut off the top of the filter to make sure there was no air in there. I turned the ignition on, so the stop solenoid would be open and primed the system. Absolute pig to start, but as ever running great once started. I will go back down tomorrow to see if it starts. This should eliminate the fuel standpipe and the water separator from my enquiries. I will try the primer bulb thing on the return line. You might need to get the vw guy (stuart ?) to have a look and measure the fuel rail pressure running and cranking pressures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 On 2/15/2024 at 12:52 PM, JonC said: I changed the leak off pipes a year or so ago, I have the replacement ones I put on and also have a bit of new stuff to replace any that look iffy. The new bolts, should I add a bit of copper slip to them or would that affect the torque settings? Talk setting is 25 Nm, I assume that is dry? Unless specifically called for, or non critical, never lubricate threads, as you rightly imply, it will stretch the bolts more to obtain the same torque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Does your setup have a low pressure pump as well as a high pressure pump like a car/van? If that is getting weak it can cause starting issues. Once fuel is up, the HP pump draws the fuel up fine, but if it has drained back it struggles. My Iveco did this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 54 minutes ago, suzook12 said: Does your setup have a low pressure pump as well as a high pressure pump like a car/van? If that is getting weak it can cause starting issues. Once fuel is up, the HP pump draws the fuel up fine, but if it has drained back it struggles. My Iveco did this. It’s a strange one regarding a low pressure pump in the supply system as there is one showing on the workshop manual but from speaking to other people with the same lump none of them have them. Apparently there is even wiring in place from the ECU box. My next move may be to fit one in to see if it helps but even if it does help it’s hiding the issue not fixing it ( I’ll settle for that though 🤣) captin slows old outlaw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 Something like this? Available in various pressure outputs suzook12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 31 minutes ago, JonC said: It’s a strange one regarding a low pressure pump in the supply system as there is one showing on the workshop manual but from speaking to other people with the same lump none of them have them. Apparently there is even wiring in place from the ECU box. My next move may be to fit one in to see if it helps but even if it does help it’s hiding the issue not fixing it ( I’ll settle for that though 🤣) Not at all Jon, it's whole purpose in life is to prime the HP pump. Every CRD I've had has had a low pressure pump. I had starting issues with my Iveco, and realised I couldnt hear the LP pump run when ignition was turned on. Twatted it with a lumpy stick til it did run, and started properly every time after that..... Prior to that, took lots of cranking to get it going. Would be ok for rest of day. Just try a pump in there and see if it solves the starting issue, if it does, then fit one properly. As you said the starting issue is a common fault, and most don't have a pump, you may well have found the answer. A 2nd hand pump wont set you back much for testing.... It may well be that these running without the pump. running the HP pump dry initially adds wear to that pump, which shows initially as a starting issue until eventually it becomes a total failure, diesel is also the lubricant for HP pumps. daio web 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 2 minutes ago, JonC said: Something like this? Available in various pressure outputs Only thing I would be wary of is if that can deliver enough fuel for full chat running. fine for testing, for under load running not so sure. I would be tempted to get a pump from a suitable vehicle once you know if that fixes the issue. Something like.... https://bisonparts.co.uk/product/electric-fuel-pump-cartridge-29273 Phil williams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 25 minutes ago, suzook12 said: Only thing I would be wary of is if that can deliver enough fuel for full chat running. fine for testing, for under load running not so sure. I would be tempted to get a pump from a suitable vehicle once you know if that fixes the issue. Something like.... https://bisonparts.co.uk/product/electric-fuel-pump-cartridge-29273 Is there any issue with having a primer pump over supplying fuel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captin slows old outlaw Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 35 minutes ago, JonC said: Is there any issue with having a primer pump over supplying fuel? i would have thought the main pump was more hungry for fuel. on the perkins it was cauled a lift pum ? never had a problem JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 31 minutes ago, JonC said: Is there any issue with having a primer pump over supplying fuel? Not that I am aware of Jon, it was a common dodge on the old vectras to put a hand prime pump online when the seals started going on the under cam injectors JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 I’ve ordered a pump, only a cheap one for now that I will Macgyver into the system. If it helps out then I’ll look at getting a proper one and hopefully wire into the loom or at least to the ignition. Geoff, suzook12, captin slows old outlaw and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Would it be possible to rig some sort of device to use some of your pot noodle exhaust gas to pressurize the system? Geoff. 🙂 captin slows old outlaw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordmac Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 A pump doesn't provide pressure it provides flow. You don't want one that becomes a restriction at high flow requirements. JonC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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