mick Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Diesel Hybrid is the best in my opinion, as batteries get better you can go electric round town and hybrid on longer trips. petrol hybrids are not economical enough, our 1.5 tdci c-max does more to the gallon than our hybrid yaris did. unless every parking space has a charger how will you charge your car, especially if you live in a block of flats or terraced house . at the moment batteries are too heavy and expensive , as they get better and cheaper then all electric might work. suzook12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 Nobody seems to mention the explosive element of lithium batteries either, when stored near other explosivive elements such as petrol...... JDP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 explosivive? Geoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 54 minutes ago, Geoff said: explosivive? Geoff. Yes mate, lithium batteries need very careful charging. Automotive types have electronics inside the battery to take care of the charging rates.... If this becomes damaged they can explode either by charge rate or discharge rate. There have been numerous incidents over the years with phones, vapes and even aircraft fires down to dodgy chargers or battery electronics..... Remember all the boeings getting grounded?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 34 minutes ago, suzook12 said: Yes mate, lithium batteries need very careful charging. Automotive types have electronics inside the battery to take care of the charging rates.... If this becomes damaged they can explode either by charge rate or discharge rate. There have been numerous incidents over the years with phones, vapes and even aircraft fires down to dodgy chargers or battery electronics..... Remember all the boeings getting grounded?? @suzook12, @Geoff is picking you up on YOUR spelling, not the facts that you impart to us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonC Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 52 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said: @suzook12, @Geoff is picking you up on YOUR spelling, not the facts that you impart to us! Actually ‘explosivive’ is a word . It means something explodes whilst exploding. Saintly Fish, Andy135, suzook12 and 1 other 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captin slows old outlaw Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 who cares as long as you get the gist of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted October 30, 2021 Author Share Posted October 30, 2021 5 hours ago, suzook12 said: Yes mate, lithium batteries need very careful charging. Automotive types have electronics inside the battery to take care of the charging rates.... If this becomes damaged they can explode either by charge rate or discharge rate. There have been numerous incidents over the years with phones, vapes and even aircraft fires down to dodgy chargers or battery electronics..... Remember all the boeings getting grounded?? You are most likely posting this comment from a lithium powered device if not on a desktop computer. There were issues with a different type of lithium battery a few years ago but don't mistake those with lifepo4 https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/lithium-battery-overview.html Lead batteries can be far more dangerous and also give off hydrogen gas during charging. If you ever see a ships battery storage you will note the warnings in and around where they are kept. Have a google search on how many deaths caused by lead batteries and you might also start thinking more about moving away from this old hazardous power. People will hear a story about a lithium, not lifepo4 battery catching fire and soon everyone is scared simply by the name lithium. A bit like people being scared of sharks or spiders but don't actually know anyone killed by them, yet they puff away on smokes and most likely have several contacts that have died from lung cancer. Geoff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 30, 2021 Share Posted October 30, 2021 1 hour ago, JDP said: You are most likely posting this comment from a lithium powered device if not on a desktop computer. There were issues with a different type of lithium battery a few years ago but don't mistake those with lifepo4 https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/lithium-battery-overview.html Lead batteries can be far more dangerous and also give off hydrogen gas during charging. If you ever see a ships battery storage you will note the warnings in and around where they are kept. Have a google search on how many deaths caused by lead batteries and you might also start thinking more about moving away from this old hazardous power. People will hear a story about a lithium, not lifepo4 battery catching fire and soon everyone is scared simply by the name lithium. A bit like people being scared of sharks or spiders but don't actually know anyone killed by them, yet they puff away on smokes and most likely have several contacts that have died from lung cancer. Nope, AC mains. seems there are issues with every other type of lithium battery. As for deaths caused by lead acid batteries for automotive use, I woul be surprised if any. I have stood next to 2 truck batteries that went off, not even a drop of acid on my overalls. Having shorted them both when my spanner slipped and landed across the terminals. We are not talking 4x4 type batteries, we're talking HGV twin batteries in series for 24V.... However, you don't get the flames with lead acids going tits up. I have probably been in more charging rooms than you could shake a stick at, or battery lead for that so am fully aware of the hydrogen emissions. I am also fully aware that there is insufficient hydrogen from an automotive battery to cause an issue on the vehicle, otherwise who in their right mind would fit them next to a spark ignition engine?? I am not scared of sharks or spiders, and seeing this is the UK that's not entirely unsurprising, equally unsurprising, I don't know anyone that was killed or even injured by either, tho I did watch Steve Irwin and jaws if that helps...... You also have to ask, why isn't LiPo4 technology being used for EV vehicles? On the environment front, none of them score very highly, but safety wise, the lead acid takes some beating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, suzook12 said: Nope, AC mains. seems there are issues with every other type of lithium battery. As for deaths caused by lead acid batteries for automotive use, I woul be surprised if any. I have stood next to 2 truck batteries that went off, not even a drop of acid on my overalls. Having shorted them both when my spanner slipped and landed across the terminals. We are not talking 4x4 type batteries, we're talking HGV twin batteries in series for 24V.... However, you don't get the flames with lead acids going tits up. I have probably been in more charging rooms than you could shake a stick at, or battery lead for that so am fully aware of the hydrogen emissions. I am also fully aware that there is insufficient hydrogen from an automotive battery to cause an issue on the vehicle, otherwise who in their right mind would fit them next to a spark ignition engine?? I am not scared of sharks or spiders, and seeing this is the UK that's not entirely unsurprising, equally unsurprising, I don't know anyone that was killed or even injured by either, tho I did watch Steve Irwin and jaws if that helps...... You also have to ask, why isn't LiPo4 technology being used for EV vehicles? On the environment front, none of them score very highly, but safety wise, the lead acid takes some beating My understanding is lopo4 is the future of ev vehicles because of its lower impact and safety aspects https://www.innomind.org/lifepo4-batteries-a-breakthrough-for-electric-vehicles/. Might be wrong, will Elon Musk what he's proposing to use https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/28/tesla-is-setting-the-bar-for-electric-vehicles-vw-ceo-admits.html As mentioned the lipo4 batteries Im using are from a company that instals these in battery banks inside homes, Id be surprised if they were able to this if they keep exploding and catching fire as some people think. Why did those truck batteries explode ? sounds dangerous to me and all the more reason not to use them. Edited October 31, 2021 by JDP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odyssey Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 As someone who worked on EVs for many years there a few points to consider. Point 1: Lifecycke analysis of wheel to well…. How much carbon is released from mining, manufacturing, running and disposal of EV power trains. It’s higher than conventional petrol/diesel vehicles Point 2: recycling of materials. These are highly toxic abs very difficult to recover Point 3: Infrastructure…. In short we don’t have any. At the rate we are building it just won’t happen in time for the government targets…. My old colleagues in automotive are pretty much given up researching batteries, ficus us now on fuel cells. That is the only way to achieve the power density needed…. Elon Musk May not agree but sadly you can’t break the rules of physics, despite how much you spout on Twitter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captin slows old outlaw Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 i wounder where this will take us in the future ???? i don`t think they will solve this in my life time, but we will see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 8 hours ago, JDP said: My understanding is lopo4 is the future of ev vehicles because of its lower impact and safety aspects https://www.innomind.org/lifepo4-batteries-a-breakthrough-for-electric-vehicles/. Might be wrong, will Elon Musk what he's proposing to use https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/28/tesla-is-setting-the-bar-for-electric-vehicles-vw-ceo-admits.html As mentioned the lipo4 batteries Im using are from a company that instals these in battery banks inside homes, Id be surprised if they were able to this if they keep exploding and catching fire as some people think. Why did those truck batteries explode ? sounds dangerous to me and all the more reason not to use them. Jon, I said why the batteries "exploded", it was the yard shunter that had just put a trailer in the workshop. As it was a quick weld repair, it was left hooked up so disconnected the batteries. My spanner slipped (owing to all the hydraulic oil sloshing about in the front of the trailer) and landed on the batteries and shorted them. The explosion was more like someone firing a shotgun, and that was that. There was no fireball associated with lithium batteries, no shower of acid, nothing..... Also, these do not explode through overcharging. You can use whatever you want to justify the expense of LiPo's, but the lead acid has an extremely good safety record, considering the sales are what, 100,000:1to LiPo's? You can't compare auto batteries to home batteries, 2 entirely different animals. If attic storage is required then the weight factor alone would justify their use. Having been looking at quite a lot of info since last night, I find it interesting that the term "Normal Use" comes up quite a lot...... Stupid quotes like can be charged much faster, up to 100A in some cases.... Well I have at least 1 120A+ alternator with a lead acid battery attached..... Yes, lead acid has it's limitations, as does any form of lithium battery, but to get a fair picture, eggs need to be compared with eggs. The area LiPo's really score is the deep cycle capability, but for a car battery, that's not really an important factor. They do indeed maintain a better output voltage while discharging, but not as good as some claim.... The biggest downside is the cost, for a general car battery, I can have over 10 years of trouble free motoring for £100 (vehicle and price rises dependant), can't really say that for any form of lithium battery. And we can't tell for some of the later ones as they haven't been around long enough in this format. Everything has a place, and that includes all formats of battery. Lithium batteries will get better undoubtedly, and LA's have plateaued. As everything is cost driven these days, Chinese manufacturing quality is going to be a bigger factor than anything else, including performance and safety, and that is a far bigger concern... As proven with the much smaller lithium batteries used in vapes, torches and the likes EV's I believe are using chrome or nickel technology in their lithium batteries at present, and judging by the current real world tests, are still a long way short of where they need to be.... The quoted 52V batteries that can power an electric scooter or bike up to 65 miles at 60A...... Yet to be proven anywhere near that in real world terms. And therein lies the problem, manufacturers claims and real world performance. Just take a look at the second hand market, people are struggling to give EV's away despite being relatively new, being sold because they didn't do what was claimed they could do..... As I said in a previous post, when EV race cars can compete with F1's within the same rules, then we are ready for EV's to take over, otherwise we see the same shambles we currently have on the railways here, where the most reliable are the ones being replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzook12 Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 19 hours ago, Saintly Fish said: @suzook12, @Geoff is picking you up on YOUR spelling, not the facts that you impart to us! I wish the spell checker Geoff would be more precise when pointing out errors.... 🤣 Andy135 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintly Fish Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 36 minutes ago, suzook12 said: I wish the spell checker Geoff would be more precise when pointing out errors.... 🤣 He's too/to/2 happy with himself that he's caught you to think about things like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDP Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 8 hours ago, suzook12 said: Jon, I said why the batteries "exploded", it was the yard shunter that had just put a trailer in the workshop. As it was a quick weld repair, it was left hooked up so disconnected the batteries. My spanner slipped (owing to all the hydraulic oil sloshing about in the front of the trailer) and landed on the batteries and shorted them. The explosion was more like someone firing a shotgun, and that was that. There was no fireball associated with lithium batteries, no shower of acid, nothing..... Also, these do not explode through overcharging. You can use whatever you want to justify the expense of LiPo's, but the lead acid has an extremely good safety record, considering the sales are what, 100,000:1to LiPo's? You can't compare auto batteries to home batteries, 2 entirely different animals. If attic storage is required then the weight factor alone would justify their use. Having been looking at quite a lot of info since last night, I find it interesting that the term "Normal Use" comes up quite a lot...... Stupid quotes like can be charged much faster, up to 100A in some cases.... Well I have at least 1 120A+ alternator with a lead acid battery attached..... Yes, lead acid has it's limitations, as does any form of lithium battery, but to get a fair picture, eggs need to be compared with eggs. The area LiPo's really score is the deep cycle capability, but for a car battery, that's not really an important factor. They do indeed maintain a better output voltage while discharging, but not as good as some claim.... The biggest downside is the cost, for a general car battery, I can have over 10 years of trouble free motoring for £100 (vehicle and price rises dependant), can't really say that for any form of lithium battery. And we can't tell for some of the later ones as they haven't been around long enough in this format. Everything has a place, and that includes all formats of battery. Lithium batteries will get better undoubtedly, and LA's have plateaued. As everything is cost driven these days, Chinese manufacturing quality is going to be a bigger factor than anything else, including performance and safety, and that is a far bigger concern... As proven with the much smaller lithium batteries used in vapes, torches and the likes EV's I believe are using chrome or nickel technology in their lithium batteries at present, and judging by the current real world tests, are still a long way short of where they need to be.... The quoted 52V batteries that can power an electric scooter or bike up to 65 miles at 60A...... Yet to be proven anywhere near that in real world terms. And therein lies the problem, manufacturers claims and real world performance. Just take a look at the second hand market, people are struggling to give EV's away despite being relatively new, being sold because they didn't do what was claimed they could do..... As I said in a previous post, when EV race cars can compete with F1's within the same rules, then we are ready for EV's to take over, otherwise we see the same shambles we currently have on the railways here, where the most reliable are the ones being replaced. Its all interesting stuff, like you say can be charged at 100amp or in the case of the ones I have even 200amp!!!!!...with many 4x4 owners upgrading to a $2500+ 350amp alternator "crazy'. To get the same amp hours from a reputable deep cycle (not car or 4x4 starter battery) Im looking at $700 which is actually more expensive than lipo4 from several manufactures over here now. Those who do film work making 4x4 shows, fishing shows and journalists on the road used to have to charge their drones either while the vehicle engine was running or in that short period after stopping a vehicle before the power drain reached 12.7 volts. Bellow 12.7 wouldn't charge commercial drones but now thanks to lipo4 this isn't an issue anymore. The same goes for those of us who carry a small fridge freezer in the 4x4, with most of them having a cut of level when the power drops on a battery bellow a certain level (which is dam annoying). With my fridge freezer and lipo4 there's not an issue as the voltage stays at around 13v how ever much drain I put on it until its flat, no taper of off os power. Then there is the weight factor of a lipo4. On my youngest daughters 4x4 she has a small 20lt fridge freezer, a computer each for her and her partner and cameras and lights to run from her little suzuki jimmy. She's been using her 7kg self contained lipo4 for the last 10 months traveling and has only drawn her power down to 50% on her whole trip, which was after three days of not running the car. A 30min run in the car soon has the battery back at 100%. Whats handy for both the way she has hers and mine is they are in easy to remove boxes with Anderson connectors and USB ports etc, even a high amp large Anderson for jump starting which that can be taken from the vehicles and used anywhere. I can power my sons full PA system for over 4 hrs on remote music gigs, which is handy as we constantly have power outages from high winds taking down power lines etc. captin slows old outlaw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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