Low engine hours

[JDP]

Rather than carry on on another thread where some people seem a little touchy when you simply point out honest facts, I thought Id start a new one in the hope it may help anyone buying into their first boat outfit.

This is trying to be helpful for anyone buying old rigs with low hours. I bought a boat with a 10 year old Honda and 250 hrs which had supposedly been flushed after every use but was totally rooted from the inside out. My current 2013 Suzuki 140 which has 300hrs is pretty much the same but I don't have the cash to replace on this one yet. A 90 mercury with less than 200hrs was again another engine I had to replace after buying what looked like a well looked after rig, so three low hour boats in 6 years have cost me a fair amount. 

According to the mechanics who've repaired or replaced mine, they claim a two year old engine with 2000 hrs is likely to be better than an engine 10 years old with 200 hrs. Engines which are run everyday or every few days don't get time for salt to dry inside the cooling and exhaust system unlike those which sit on trailers or moorings for weeks without use. This is something you soon see when boats start getting a few years on them in comparison with commercial rigs that run most days. Also the fact that recreational vessels tend to do short runs where they barely warm up before being switched off to sit at anchor and cool down again, hence the low hours. 

Many of the boats I drive commercially are running all day without freshwater flushing and don't give us any problems other than routine services. 

The saltwater environment is not like leaving a car in a garage for years, there are no anodes eating away inside the power head or thermostats building up salt etc. 

Its not just the engine either, a boat with a few years on it needs to be carefully inspected for water intrusion which may of gotten into areas it shouldn't. Waterlogged underfloor foam and rotten timbers in transoms is far more common than people might realise. Ive had a few rotten boats both here and the UK, more in the UK as they were boats that had been kept on moorings and the fact its a wet climate.

Just saying buyer beware, a boat hit with a decent polisher to sell can look like new but also covering a heap of underlying issues. 

  

Edited December 2, 2020 by JDP

[JDP]

Just to add, with my current Suzuki 140 that the service history had been followed to the book by the previous owner. It had had its 20hr service followed by three more services, so four in all but over 8 years. Also the term rooted is what people call f***** here.

[Andy135]

What sort of things should prospective buyers look for if they're considering a low hours engine? How can they tell whether it's a good one or not?

[suzook12]

2 hours ago, Andy135 said:

What sort of things should prospective buyers look for if they're considering a low hours engine? How can they tell whether it's a good one or not?

That, Neil, is the $6M question. The only real answer is not a viable option, and no vendor is going to allow you to tear an engine down. Buying from a dealer, you could probably negotiate a certain amount of warranty, private, you're just gonna have to price accordingly and take a punt......

Knowing the potential pitfalls gives you the choice..... Any external details that reinforce the worse eventuality lessens the odds even more

[Saintly Fish]

7 hours ago, Andy135 said:

What sort of things should prospective buyers look for if they're considering a low hours engine? How can they tell whether it's a good one or not?

The most you can do is get a decent engineer to do a full mechanical inspection and sea trial. Get the oil analysed too. 
if oil is not containing metal shavings and the engine runs well and at correct temps etc then you be done what you can and the choice is then yours. 

[JonC]

9 hours ago, JDP said:

Just to add, with my current Suzuki 140 that the service history had been followed to the book by the previous owner. It had had its 20hr service followed by three more services, so four in all but over 8 years. Also the term rooted is what people call f***** here.

I don’t think anyone is going to get upset over a post giving precautionary information about engine hours and servicing so crack on ( Except @suzook12 maybe who is gonna be on the engine’s side if it kicks off because he likes engines more than people 🤣

[JDP]

9 hours ago, Andy135 said:

What sort of things should prospective buyers look for if they're considering a low hours engine? How can they tell whether it's a good one or not?

Yes its certainly a tough one and better to get things looked at by a mechanic but that can often be pretty difficult. With most engines getting the seller to obtain a current computer print out could be one option but still doesn't guarantee much.

I bought the boat I have now unseen during the fires, I was blocked from leaving our town for two months and didn't want to miss out on another boat having just missed one a week before. I checked out the seller who was a school teacher and semi professional basketball player who seemed to have a pretty good reputation on social media. The hours were 235 and had been serviced (with receipts) four times. The outfit was claimed to of been kept in a specially built garage with photos included. There was a full diagnostic printout of servicing, hours, rpm etc. Fully scoping someone out through social media will often be a good way of finding out how a boats been cared for, in my case I wasn't looking at the right people, these were previous owners from several years before !!!

The boat was 1200km from my place and a gap in the fire gave me a chance to slip away to get it. I arrived at the address only to find no boat and the people selling it had only rented the place for a short time (so they didn't build the garage specially, simply took photos of the boat outside it. The people would not answer phone calls and neighbours told me the people who had the boat hadn't lived there for 6 months. By now I was thinking I had ditched $40000 and had a long drive home boatless. 

Luckily one of the neighbours put me onto someone who had known them and 4 hrs later I located the boat hidden on a property. The property owner had been asked to keep the boat hidden out of sight from the road incase anyone stole it and didn't seem aware of the dodgy deal he'd been asked to be part of. He managed to get hold of the people who had put the boat there ( a pair of large middle eastern thugs ). I bluffed my way around them telling them I had informed the police. 

They forged the registration paperwork and I couldn't get out of there quick enough. The boat looked in very bad shape but at least it was better than loosing everything.

I had a mobile mechanic come to my home to service it. The prop was totally written off, looking like it had been run through rocks destroying the blades completely. The electric wiring from the battery  to the main circuit switch panel had to be totally replaced.

Under the cowling it was plain to see this engine had been exposed to high temps, possible from running without pumping water on the muffs. Water wouldn't pump at all but the impeller was fine. The thermostat had been changed as well as the anodes on its 200hr service. The engine had done just 35hrs since that service, problem being these 35hrs had been over 3 years since that service. During that 35hrs in three years the powerhead anodes had totally dissolved and the thermostat wasn't much better (hence what I mean on low hours). The whole cooling system was solid with dried salt which was chiseled out with a screw driver. The system was soaked with concentrated saltaway solution. Eventually water started pumping through. 

Everything on the engine that could rust has rusted, even the black plastic has gouging to the white plastic. The engine still gives me problems but Im stuck with it for now. In contrast the anodes on my Yamaha when I sold it having clocked 950hrs in two years were still in good condition. Suzuki powerhead anodes need to regularly be checked and replaced. Its pretty easy to take a socket set and just remove a powerhead anode to check inside with a torch, no need to remove them all, one should show enough to see if they have been looked after.

Trimming up the engine to check the power trim for leaks is pretty straight forward (yes mine leaks at 235hours). When the engine is trimmed up you can lift the engine by hand from the gearbox area to feel for play around the steering pivot area (yes mine has play).

While lifting the engine from that gearbox area you can also look for any flexing in the transom (a sign of rotten transom). You can also check to see if the engine mount bolts have sunken into the fibreglass from the inside of the boat. If the bolts have pulled into the fibreglass or someone has put a plate on the inside of the boat this could well be a sign of a rotting waterlogged transoms. If the floor flexes as you walk on it or bounce up and down, again a sign of rotten stringers and waterlogged underfloor flotation.

Over on the other forum you can find people with Suzuki problems which again had low hours, where they have corroded from the inside out. These issues with my 140 Suzuki are almost identical to the problems I had with a low hour Honda at 10 years old, which I ended up scrapping. Salt inside any engine isn't a good thing but at least running them regularly before the salt dries and bakes onto the internal cooling passages greatly reduces problems. Anodes need checking or replacing even on boats used only in freshwater.

Overall my boat and trailer matched the condition of the engine. Ive put around $12000-15000 into it and its still not worth what I initially paid for it!!!!!....

Its a well known fact that a recreational outboard had a life expectancy of around 2000 hrs where a commercial outboard is more like 8000-10000.

[suzook12]

1 hour ago, JonC said:

I don’t think anyone is going to get upset over a post giving precautionary information about engine hours and servicing so crack on ( Except @suzook12 maybe who is gonna be on the engine’s side if it kicks off because he likes engines more than people 🤣

You don't know just how true that is!! 🤣

[JonC]

21 minutes ago, JDP said:

Yes its certainly a tough one and better to get things looked at by a mechanic but that can often be pretty difficult. With most engines getting the seller to obtain a current computer print out could be one option but still doesn't guarantee much.

I bought the boat I have now unseen during the fires, I was blocked from leaving our town for two months and didn't want to miss out on another boat having just missed one a week before. I checked out the seller who was a school teacher and semi professional basketball player who seemed to have a pretty good reputation on social media. The hours were 235 and had been serviced (with receipts) four times. The outfit was claimed to of been kept in a specially built garage with photos included. There was a full diagnostic printout of servicing, hours, rpm etc. Fully scoping someone out through social media will often be a good way of finding out how a boats been cared for, in my case I wasn't looking at the right people, these were previous owners from several years before !!!

The boat was 1200km from my place and a gap in the fire gave me a chance to slip away to get it. I arrived at the address only to find no boat and the people selling it had only rented the place for a short time (so they didn't build the garage specially, simply took photos of the boat outside it. The people would not answer phone calls and neighbours told me the people who had the boat hadn't lived there for 6 months. By now I was thinking I had ditched $40000 and had a long drive home boatless. 

Luckily one of the neighbours put me onto someone who had known them and 4 hrs later I located the boat hidden on a property. The property owner had been asked to keep the boat hidden out of sight from the road incase anyone stole it and didn't seem aware of the dodgy deal he'd been asked to be part of. He managed to get hold of the people who had put the boat there ( a pair of large middle eastern thugs ). I bluffed my way around them telling them I had informed the police. 

They forged the registration paperwork and I couldn't get out of there quick enough. The boat looked in very bad shape but at least it was better than loosing everything.

I had a mobile mechanic come to my home to service it. The prop was totally written off, looking like it had been run through rocks destroying the blades completely. The electric wiring from the battery  to the main circuit switch panel had to be totally replaced.

Under the cowling it was plain to see this engine had been exposed to high temps, possible from running without pumping water on the muffs. Water wouldn't pump at all but the impeller was fine. The thermostat had been changed as well as the anodes on its 200hr service. The engine had done just 35hrs since that service, problem being these 35hrs had been over 3 years since that service. During that 35hrs in three years the powerhead anodes had totally dissolved and the thermostat wasn't much better (hence what I mean on low hours). The whole cooling system was solid with dried salt which was chiseled out with a screw driver. The system was soaked with concentrated saltaway solution. Eventually water started pumping through. 

Everything on the engine that could rust has rusted, even the black plastic has gouging to the white plastic. The engine still gives me problems but Im stuck with it for now. In contrast the anodes on my Yamaha when I sold it having clocked 950hrs in two years were still in good condition. Suzuki powerhead anodes need to regularly be checked and replaced. Its pretty easy to take a socket set and just remove a powerhead anode to check inside with a torch, no need to remove them all, one should show enough to see if they have been looked after.

Trimming up the engine to check the power trim for leaks is pretty straight forward (yes mine leaks at 235hours). When the engine is trimmed up you can lift the engine by hand from the gearbox area to feel for play around the steering pivot area (yes mine has play).

While lifting the engine from that gearbox area you can also look for any flexing in the transom (a sign of rotten transom). You can also check to see if the engine mount bolts have sunken into the fibreglass from the inside of the boat. If the bolts have pulled into the fibreglass or someone has put a plate on the inside of the boat this could well be a sign of a rotting waterlogged transoms. If the floor flexes as you walk on it or bounce up and down, again a sign of rotten stringers and waterlogged underfloor flotation.

Over on the other forum you can find people with Suzuki problems which again had low hours, where they have corroded from the inside out. These issues with my 140 Suzuki are almost identical to the problems I had with a low hour Honda at 10 years old, which I ended up scrapping. Salt inside any engine isn't a good thing but at least running them regularly before the salt dries and bakes onto the internal cooling passages greatly reduces problems. Anodes need checking or replacing even on boats used only in freshwater.

Overall my boat and trailer matched the condition of the engine. Ive put around $12000-15000 into it and its still not worth what I initially paid for it!!!!!....

Its a well known fact that a recreational outboard had a life expectancy of around 2000 hrs where a commercial outboard is more like 8000-10000.

Jesus, we could make a film out of that one. 
I’ll think about the cast. 

[suzook12]

3 hours ago, Saintly Fish said:

The most you can do is get a decent engineer to do a full mechanical inspection and sea trial. Get the oil analysed too. 
if oil is not containing metal shavings and the engine runs well and at correct temps etc then you be done what you can and the choice is then yours. 

I like ya thinking Neil, except oil analasys will only show if the engine is worn/damaged, it won't necessarily show cooling side issues, or if the water jacket has almost corroded through.

How many boats/engines do you look at, paying a mechanic to strip and rebuild an engine before you find one both he and you are happy with? Won't be many before you have bought a new engine.........

[Odyssey]

If rather an engine with higher hours and a full service history. 
 

Chatting to a mechanic yesterday he agreed. He said the worst engine you can buy is a low hours “holiday boat” service may not be done year on year, never gets used or flushed....

He wasn’t very complimentary about Suzuki engines as the anodes were similar to an alkaseltzer, they fizz and disappear when hit water.....

My engines are around 1100 hours. Having a full top to bottom service. Only issue is a potential gear box seal. But commercial boats change their seals at 1200hours so I should of expected that...

He also mentioned about good quality oil... Don’t scrimp on it.... 

Only his feedback and observations from working on commercial and leisure engines 

[suzook12]

Jon, excellent post. And it just goes to show, no matter how experienced you are, someone will find a chink in your armour and fuck you over!

[suzook12]

10 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

 

He also mentioned about good quality oil... Don’t scrimp on it.... 

 

A point I've been shouted down over many times, but why I use fully synthetic oils on all my engines, even pre mix 2 bangers or should that be especially 2 bangers....

[captin slows old outlaw]

i have old engins, i have been lucky so far, i was brought up on seagulls (outboard ) and old desiles. im dont like over serfisted engins to mush to go rong.

[JDP]

57 minutes ago, captin slows old outlaw said:

i have old engins, i have been lucky so far, i was brought up on seagulls (outboard ) and old desiles. im dont like over serfisted engins to mush to go rong.

Trouble is all engines are pretty high tech these days, which in some ways is good but dad in others. At least hooking them up to a computer will often show the exact cause of an issue rather than wasting time going through bit by bit.

I had a seagull, was terribly unreliable, it was best not to stop it once you got it going!!!!

 

1 hour ago, suzook12 said:

A point I've been shouted down over many times, but why I use fully synthetic oils on all my engines, even pre mix 2 bangers or should that be especially 2 bangers....

I tend to trust peoples word way too much!!!!

[captin slows old outlaw]

yes i agrea that just plug in the computer ect but regarding seagulls there is not a lote to go rong. if it has points its a pain. the maneto syteam is so simple, my seagull normaly will start on 2nd pull .

[JDP]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:56 PM, captin slows old outlaw said:

yes i agrea that just plug in the computer ect but regarding seagulls there is not a lote to go rong. if it has points its a pain. the maneto syteam is so simple, my seagull normaly will start on 2nd pull .

My seagull was probably the most unreliable outboard I ever owned and the first. I think its these early engines that have embed the fear of breakdowns into many of us where in reality modern engines are extremely reliable. Just like an old two stroke lawn mower with heavy oil ratios, the seagull was the same, constantly oiling up the plug if I trolled lures for a while. Hard to start both hot or cold to the point when I did start the dam thing I wouldn't stop it again until I got home, which meant re-fueling it while it was running out at sea around the Needles area!!!!

Out of interest how long do most run their engines for on an average trip, for me it would be the entire trip most of the time, yesterday being around 7hrs. Petrol or Diesel engines started and run short distances to fishing grounds would barely be getting warmed up.

[GPSguru]

2 hours ago, JDP said:

Out of interest how long do most run their engines for on an average trip, for me it would be the entire trip most of the time, yesterday being around 7hrs. Petrol or Diesel engines started and run short distances to fishing grounds would barely be getting warmed up.

 

My engine gets between 2 - 4 hours on the average trip, however, for safety reasons I always kill the engine when drifting or when I am not at the helm. In an open boat it is far too easy for somebody to accidentally knock the throttle, which, if the engine was running could have dire consequences.

[JDP]

4 hours ago, GPSguru said:

 

My engine gets between 2 - 4 hours on the average trip, however, for safety reasons I always kill the engine when drifting or when I am not at the helm. In an open boat it is far too easy for somebody to accidentally knock the throttle, which, if the engine was running could have dire consequences.

I do sometimes get the opportunity to switch the engine off but usually the sea conditions mean Im mostly needing to touch the boat in and out of gear even drifting fishing (jigging). With divers in the water spearing I need to be constantly on the watch with the engine running to pull them from from the water if they shoot fish or block boats that don't seem to understand what two large dive flags and bright coloured dive floats mean!!!

[JonC]

5 hours ago, GPSguru said:

 

My engine gets between 2 - 4 hours on the average trip, however, for safety reasons I always kill the engine when drifting or when I am not at the helm. In an open boat it is far too easy for somebody to accidentally knock the throttle, which, if the engine was running could have dire consequences.

You mention people knocking the throttle, I sometimes drive the safety rib  for the sailing club when the cadets are sailing. It is amazing to see how many of the older sailing members don’t attach the kill cord when at the helm. 
One key thing I did pick up on a pb2 course was to always have a hand on the lever so it can’t be knocked accidentally. 

[Saintly Fish]

7 minutes ago, JonC said:

You mention people knocking the throttle, I sometimes drive the safety rib  for the sailing club when the cadets are sailing. It is amazing to see how many of the older sailing members don’t attach the kill cord when at the helm. 
One key thing I did pick up on a pb2 course was to always have a hand on the lever so it can’t be knocked accidentally. 

Do you have an extension to your kill cord Jon?

[JonC]

13 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Do you have an extension to your kill cord Jon?

I don’t have an extension, if you’re in the seat why would you? And if you’re out of the seat engine off. Boats with a shed are different though, it’s very difficult to knock the lever when it’s inside.

I am also aware by the tone of your voice that your comments were aimed as a dig at me because you think the cord won’t go around me but they should be attached to the lower leg, of which mine are fairly standard size🖕
 

[Saintly Fish]

1 minute ago, JonC said:

I don’t have an extension, if you’re in the seat why would you? And if you’re out of the seat engine off. Boats with a shed are different though, it’s very difficult to knock the lever when it’s inside.

I am also aware by the tone of your voice that your comments were aimed at a dig at me because you think the cord won’t go around me but they should be attached to the lower leg, of which mine are fairly standard size🖕
 

I think Andy has made you paranoid. I was thinking more about moving around the boat, but heyho!

[JonC]

1 minute ago, Saintly Fish said:

I think Andy has made you paranoid. I was thinking more about moving around the boat, but heyho!

Paranoid my arse, I know exactly how you work. 
Why are you moving around the boat with engine running? 

[Saintly Fish]

1 minute ago, JonC said:

Paranoid my arse, I know exactly how you work. 
Why are you moving around the boat with engine running? 

I don’t know I don’t drive a rescue boat Jon. 🤷🏻‍♂️